4: What is Love? Taking a Closer Look

Apr 1

What is love? In this episode, Amanda & Kelby dive into exploring what really is love and how do we be more loving in our everyday lives. They believe we all have different definitions of love, so they begin the episode by reading read different definitions of love and then continue to unpack what love is for them. Join them for this conversation where they take a closer look at love and put it under the scope.

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Book Recommendations

All About Love: New Vision by Bell Hooks

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This podcast was transcribed by an AI tool called Castmagic. Please forgive any typos or errors.
Kelby Knutt [00:00:09]:
Love under the scope.
Amanda Durocher [00:00:16]:
Welcome to Love Under the Scope. I'm Amanda Durocher.
Kelby Knutt [00:00:19]:
And I am Kelby Knutt. And this is a podcast where we explore the realities of long term love, all of the ups and downs, and our intention is to just get real about everything that happens when you are in deep with your romantic partner. So in today's episode, we're gonna be talking about love. What is love? Our podcast is called Love Under the Scope. So we figured we probably should talk about love Yeah. And put it under the scope.
Amanda Durocher [00:00:50]:
We were both talking about before this episode that love is hard to define. I have tried to define love so many different times, and it's hard to put into words.
Kelby Knutt [00:00:59]:
Yeah. It really is. It can be elusive, which I think is a beautiful thing about it, but I do think there is a point where we should try to define love so we know if we're experiencing it, at least define it for ourselves. And, you know, what does it feel like for me to be loved by another person and by myself? What does it mean for me to give and receive love? I do think that's important to give us some kind of structure, receive love? I do think that's important to give us some kind of structure of what we can sort of move towards, like a compass in our life.
Amanda Durocher [00:01:30]:
Yeah. I agree. And I think that when we leave it really open or when we tell ourselves, I don't really know what love is, we can get messages or ideas of what love isn't mixed in there. And I think that when we can create a definition for ourselves and I think it might be different for different people. But I think when we create that definition for ourselves, it helps us to, like you said, know when we're feeling love, when we're in alignment with love, and when we're giving love, or when maybe we're falling back on something else that isn't actually love.
Kelby Knutt [00:01:57]:
Yeah. And I like that you say, you know, it's different for everyone. And so I think I wanna just mention here that we're gonna be talking about what love is for us, you know, me, Kelby, you, Amanda. And then the listeners, you guys can reflect and decide, are you similar to us? Do you want to experience love in the same way? And how is it different for you personally?
Amanda Durocher [00:02:19]:
And I think one of the reasons I think it's different for different people is that we were looking at different definitions of love before this episode, and Kelby will read one from a book, and I can read ChatGPT's answer. But both of us were like, I don't know if that's quite what love is for us. So we're like, oh, I see that that there's truth in that. But it's not quite what it is for us. So seeing that, I was like, oh, I think it's gonna be different for everybody. They're gonna have their own maybe, like, love mission statement.
Kelby Knutt [00:02:47]:
Yeah. I agree. We could start out with the Google definition, which I believe was something along the lines of let's see. Okay.
Amanda Durocher [00:02:56]:
Google defines love as love is a complex and multifaceted human experience encompassing strong feelings of affection, care, and emotional attachment, often involving intimacy, passion, and commitment.
Kelby Knutt [00:03:09]:
Okay. You know, I'm I can't say a % boo. You know? That's not it. What I can say is I think you can experience those things in a relationship that is not necessarily loving. It's you could be in a relationship where you feel those things and say, I love you, but you're not acting loving.
Amanda Durocher [00:03:32]:
Yeah. That's a really good point. I also read it, and it's kind of like, yes, question mark. It feels a little vague, but also I feel like those things, like you said, can fall into love, but it's not necessarily what love is. Agreed. I wanna focus in on
Kelby Knutt [00:03:50]:
the word attraction. I've been attracted to people who fed into kind of one of my darker, I guess, shadowy sides because they were feeding a narrative that I told myself that wasn't necessarily true. Like, I am unlovable. So I was attracted to them, but were they treating me in a loving way necessarily? No.
Amanda Durocher [00:04:12]:
And I think same with the words intimacy and passion. I think love is intimate, but I don't know if it even means it in that way here. I'll give it intimacy. But the passion one, I think many toxic relationships in my life had a lot of passion. They had a lot of lust. I put passion and lust together a lot. Like, it doesn't mean your romantic partnership can't have passion. It just doesn't have it in every moment.
Amanda Durocher [00:04:35]:
And I think a lot of times, for me in those more toxic relationships in my life, there was a lot of that passion and there was commitment. Like, they were relationships, specifically what I'm thinking of. But I wouldn't say that was love at all. I actually don't think either of us ever loved each other. We didn't know what love was.
Kelby Knutt [00:04:51]:
Yeah. I have experienced the same thing. I've had quite passionate moments with people who I thought I was receiving love in that moment. I was confusing passion and lust for, oh, this is love. I'm being loved right now. And that wasn't really true. You know, passion, it was fun maybe for that moment. But when it was all over, did I end up feeling loved or more lovable?
Amanda Durocher [00:05:17]:
No. Yeah. I think that's common. I think so too, especially when
Kelby Knutt [00:05:22]:
you look at, like, movies and media that portrays lust as love.
Amanda Durocher [00:05:27]:
Yes. 100%.
Kelby Knutt [00:05:29]:
Kinda damaging. Yeah. And we talked about the chat GPT definition as well, which so we're looking at the chat g p t definition, which is similar to the Google definition. You know, it's a complex and multifaceted emotion that's difficult to define, which okay. Sure. Sure. And it actually breaks it down into romantic love, platonic love, familial love, self love, and compassionate love, which is interesting. I do like that it gives you a little bit more of a breakdown.
Kelby Knutt [00:06:01]:
For all intents and purposes of this podcast, I think we'll focus in on romantic love, which it defines as the passionate affection and desire between partners. Oh, isn't that lovely?
Amanda Durocher [00:06:14]:
Interesting. I also thought this was interesting that it took compassionate love and made it separate from other loves.
Kelby Knutt [00:06:22]:
Yeah. A selfless love focused on caring for others, including acts of kindness and empathy. It's kinda sweet. I mean, it is nice.
Amanda Durocher [00:06:30]:
It's nice. It's funny because I read these definitions, and I'm like, you're almost there. Like, you kinda get it, computer. Yeah. But I can't quite even identify how it's wrong. Do you wanna read the definition you have from the book because it's a bit different?
Kelby Knutt [00:06:44]:
Yeah. So I am looking at All About Love by Bell Hooks. I did really enjoy this book. She kind of takes, like, a realistic view of love and how we deal with love in our society and how we've separated ourselves from love and what that means for us in the long term. So I do enjoy this book. She talks about how it's important to define love because otherwise, we can get kind of sloppy, quote, unquote, with the term and just kind of throw it around without knowing what it really means. So she defines love as the will to extend oneself for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth.
Amanda Durocher [00:07:28]:
What do you think of that definition?
Kelby Knutt [00:07:30]:
I like it. I like how she mentions one's own spiritual growth because in my view, there is an element of loving self so that we can love others. That is important to me that there's an element of loving self that's Yeah. That's needs to be accounted for.
Amanda Durocher [00:07:49]:
Yeah. A %. I think that you can truly only love somebody else as much as you love yourself. Yeah. So I think that's a really important part of it because if you don't love yourself, I don't know if you even have the capacity to love anybody else.
Kelby Knutt [00:08:01]:
So if I look at we were talking about this before we even started recording, like, the idea of the will to extend oneself and how the word will at first, I was like, oh, I kind of like the desire to extend oneself, but now I'm like, the will I like the word the will because when you're dedicated to loving somebody, when you love somebody with intention and with purpose, there is a will involved in that where you are accepting that it's gonna be hard sometimes to love somebody and to love yourself. There's gonna be, like, some effort involved, you know, in in that. Because
Amanda Durocher [00:08:40]:
I think that's that part, but you just said it, that makes Will different is it's the effort. Like, you're willing to do it even maybe when you don't want
Kelby Knutt [00:08:49]:
to. Yes. Okay. This is an important part for me too, and I've learned this. Are you willing to look at your own shit and own it in order to love somebody better, including yourself, by the way, including yourself? Yeah. Be willing to do that.
Amanda Durocher [00:09:04]:
And I think will too. Like, there's a choice within it. You know? And I think when it comes to real love, in my opinion, we choose to love each other and choose to love our partners every day. Yes. It's a choice.
Kelby Knutt [00:09:18]:
Yes. So I love that you said that because it's a good segue into bell hooks in this book talks about love is an action. Love is a verb. You know? It's not just this fluffy feeling where you're, like, buying chocolates and flowers for somebody. I mean, that could certainly be part of it, but love is an action word.
Amanda Durocher [00:09:40]:
Mhmm.
Kelby Knutt [00:09:41]:
Like, I'm putting my she says, extending oneself. I'm putting I'm actively, putting effort into loving. Even though love when we open ourselves up to love, there is an effortlessness there about it, but there is a willing to meet ourselves and our partner in messiness too.
Amanda Durocher [00:10:07]:
It's funny. Before this episode, we were talking about all the different, like, this and that can be true. And I feel like love is a similar thing where this and that can be true with its effort to love somebody, but it's also effortless. And they can both exist at the same time. Yes. It's like you love your partner, and that can feel effortless because you're like, you look at them and you're like, I love you. But there's also moments where you have to put that effort in to love them, to choose that love when you may feel triggered or you may have your own stuff coming up or when you would normally turn away and be a different version of yourself. Like, for me, it would be like a mean version of myself.
Amanda Durocher [00:10:43]:
It's an effort to choose to be the loving version of myself in those moments with the partner who so many times in my life, it is effortless for me to love, if that makes sense.
Kelby Knutt [00:10:52]:
It does make sense. A lot of sense. Yeah. I think there's an element of, like, projection involved too. You know, I can sit here and say, oh, I love my partner all the time, all day long, you know, twenty four seven, but then there are times where I'm projecting my stuff onto him. And Mhmm. In that moment, he is, like, everything that's wrong with the world. Right? Right? Like, we could be so dramatic about it.
Kelby Knutt [00:11:13]:
You know? Like, he is my biggest problem, like, right now in this moment because I'm projecting all of my crap onto him. And can we do the inner introspection that is needed in order to look inside and say, oh, what of all of this crap that I'm seeing, which of it is mine? And, usually, it's all of it. In my experience, I think it at least with our partner, like, it's all of it is our projection. I mean, assuming that you love your partner and you picked them because they're a a good fit for you and they're, like, a good person to whatever extent. Right? It's usually all your projection, and that's just my experience. You know? It could be different for other people.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:02]:
I think so too because even when Evan does something, I won't even say wrong, I view as wrong. Maybe there needs to be a shift. It's usually not something that should make me have that unloving reaction that can come out. You know? For example, with us, we're always bickering over housework. We both work a lot, and I tend to take on more of the housework, but he takes on the financial stuff. So whatever. It's a whole thing within my head to justify these things. But when I look at him, I'm like, how could you never think of doing the dishes? And then I realized that's me.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:36]:
I never voiced it. I never asked him to do it. You know, like, there's all these pieces of me in this projection that at the end of the day, could have he done the dishes? Yes. But it's not something worth fighting over, if that makes sense. Like, the projection is me thinking it's a bigger problem than it is.
Kelby Knutt [00:12:50]:
Agreed. It's funny you say right and wrong. I just told a couple today in a session, like, neither of you is doing anything wrong. And that's just the truth. I mean, again, we've said this before, but everything we speak on is with the assumption that there's no, you know, abuse going on or violence or anything like that. So with that as the foundation, nobody could do anything wrong. And I say that as somebody who has pointed my finger at my partner hundreds of times and said, you're wrong. I am right, and that's just the way it is.
Kelby Knutt [00:13:25]:
Like and I've done that with my full chest. Like so I'm not I don't mean to preach, but that's what I'm learning now in my, you know, in my finer moments where I can say, he's never done anything wrong ever.
Amanda Durocher [00:13:37]:
I know. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Yeah. I think about that too. That's why I'm at a point with Evan where because I thought maybe we could talk about I guess, this is coming up to the idea of conditional love versus unconditional love. Where with Evan, I'm more and more like, oh, I think this is what unconditional love is because I don't think there's anything you could do at this point that would make me not love you, but that didn't happen overnight. You know, like, at this point, I know him because somebody could be like, well, what if he murders somebody? And it's like, he's not going to, though. Like, I know him.
Amanda Durocher [00:14:08]:
Like, what if he does this? What if he does that? But at this point, 14 in, he'd have to be dropped on his head to do certain things. It doesn't mean he's not gonna hurt me. And it doesn't mean things might not happen. It doesn't mean we'll even be together forever. I just think we've been through so much at this point that nothing would take away that love I had for him. I also think if he did kill somebody, I know him well enough that I don't know. Maybe there was a reason. Just joking.
Kelby Knutt [00:14:35]:
Just just joking, but
Amanda Durocher [00:14:37]:
We're not pro violence here, though. Yeah. No. I seem to joke about murder on all my podcasts recently, so I'll make a mirror before
Kelby Knutt [00:14:44]:
next week anyway. Oh, we all go there. All they were just human. Yeah. I agree. It's like we trust this person. And by the way, Kai and I have flung some really bad, like, insults at each other. And I can think of one time in particular that's, like, burned into my brain, but it still wasn't wrong.
Kelby Knutt [00:15:03]:
I mean, if you think about it, like, people can say words to you, and they can yell words at you. Are you gonna take those words and repeat them back to yourself and drive the knife in even further? You know? And, ideally, we're not calling each other names every day, but, I mean, that stuff happens. And this is particularly towards the beginning of our relationship where we were pretty irresponsible about our love. And I think there is
Amanda Durocher [00:15:28]:
a conversation explore that. That's interesting. Yeah. What do you mean by that? Irresponsible with your love?
Kelby Knutt [00:15:33]:
We were, like, two little kids having tantrums and just trying to, like, hurt each other as much as we could. Mhmm. And we didn't, like, own any of our stuff, and we would get into fights. And, like, you know, there would be threats of, like, I'm leaving you. There would be name calling. And, yeah, irresponsible. Like, no commitment to being loving. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:15:54]:
Yeah. I love that because as we're trying to define love, I actually think that that's part of it. The willingness willingness might not be the right word, but taking accountability for what it means to love somebody.
Kelby Knutt [00:16:07]:
Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:16:08]:
Owning that that's a privilege.
Kelby Knutt [00:16:11]:
Yeah. Like an agreement almost too of, like, okay. You know, for me and Kai, it's like, okay. We've done the thing where I call you like an asshole, and then you call me a bitch. And then we say we're gonna leave each other, and we do that whole charade. And it's like, oh, oh. I'm almost like seeing, like, a puppet show in my head. Like, that's what it feels like.
Kelby Knutt [00:16:30]:
Okay. Okay. Are we done now? Because this is kind of getting old, and I actually love you. So, like, can we take responsibility now? And and, you know, love love is cool. Like, whatever the idea of love, like, oh, I love you. Like, here's some flowers and whatever. Like, Valentine's Day love is what comes up for me. You know, that's nice and stuff, but I think there are facets of love that are, like, yeah, responsibility, like, a commitment to showing up and a promise that you make to each other of not being perfect or anything, but just, like, I promise to whether you say this verbally or not or just it's an internal thing, like, I promise to keep learning to love you better.
Kelby Knutt [00:17:12]:
That's what I tell Kai. I promise that I will keep learning.
Amanda Durocher [00:17:15]:
Yeah. With the definition you read, I really liked the growth piece. I wasn't sure I'd define it as spiritual growth, but I think growth in general. And that's part of that learning. Like, you're committed to continuing to learn and grow together in that love. Because I think love as I said, my love for Evan has deepened over time, and that's only happened through our commitment to growing together in our relationship and with each other and learning to love ourselves more.
Kelby Knutt [00:17:42]:
Yeah. That's part of the commitment. I will learn to care for myself in a better way. Right? So that takes mindfulness of what's going on inside of me, which absolutely I mean, if you think about it, we see our partner as we are. There's a quote in there from an author. I can't remember her name, but she says, like, we see each other as we are, not as they are. So if we see our partner as we see ourselves, then we probably will want to do some work on ourselves so that we don't see our partner as, like, a monster or as, like, our as, like, a person who traps us or a person who, you know, torments us. Right? So there's a absolutely a piece in there of looking at how do you look at yourself.
Kelby Knutt [00:18:29]:
What is your inner critic saying to you on a daily basis?
Amanda Durocher [00:18:33]:
Yeah. And I was thinking about with that, it's a privilege to love your partner, or I view it as an honor. I actually said that to Evan yesterday. I was just crying in the park. Like, it's such an honor to love you. Me and those moments, I have. But that honor, like, by recognizing that there's responsibility with that where you're like, I want to show up as the version of me who will honor that that's a privilege that I get to love you. It's a choice.
Amanda Durocher [00:18:58]:
This isn't guaranteed. You don't have to stay with me. I don't have to stay with you because we're both choosing to be together. And I think with that responsibility piece, it's so often looking in the mirror, like you were saying, that we have to, yeah, take responsibility for ourselves because that's the part of us that will be the reactive part within the relationship that will put the other person down or be unloving. It's the projection part.
Kelby Knutt [00:19:20]:
Absolutely. You talked about honor. It's an honor to love you. I think saying that to our partner is such a big deal. Like, if I were to hear that, maybe I'm sure Kai has told me that at at some point or some version of that. The safety of that, like, no matter what, it's an honor to love you. And it kinda creates, like, a, I guess, safety blanket or something of, no matter what, I'm dedicated to this. And then can you turn around and say that to yourself too? Like, it's an honor to be able to learn to love myself better.
Kelby Knutt [00:19:53]:
Yeah. Because it's just true.
Amanda Durocher [00:19:55]:
Honestly, I mean, the reason I'm passionate about the inner work, and I talk about it on, like, all the podcast, is that it is. I think the greatest honor we have is actually getting to know ourselves and getting to share who we are with other people. And through that, we're more loving. We're more compassionate. But time and time again, I have been my own biggest critic. I've been so hard on myself, so I've been so hard on the world, on other people, including Evan at the beginning of our relationship. I was so hard on him. I was so critical.
Amanda Durocher [00:20:24]:
And, eventually, it was like, ah, it's because I'm so freaking critical of myself. And it was through that work of learning to forgive myself for all the things I judge myself for and continue to do. I'm not perfect, but that it's like, wow. I'm pretty great. That's freaking awesome. And I get to share this with Evan, and he's really great, and that's really awesome. That's me on my best days, but not every day. But it's cool that at one point in my life, I never had those moments at all.
Amanda Durocher [00:20:53]:
And it's cool that those are mixed into the not so great days now. But I only love Evan as much as I do because I love myself. Like, I just go back to that time and time again.
Kelby Knutt [00:21:01]:
When we enter a relationship like that where there's commitment, you know, long term commitment, it gives us a playground where we get to experiment with, hey. What happens when I love myself this way? What happens when I start to implement this loving thing towards myself? Mhmm. And not just thoughts, but actions. You know? What happens when I give myself more rest or when I give myself more energy or whatever it is. It's like a playground because everything that you do to love yourself more, you get to see the reflection of it in the relationship since it's a projection of your consciousness of in your beliefs. You literally get to watch it unfold inside of you and outside of you.
Amanda Durocher [00:21:45]:
And I think that's a big thing about long term love is that I think once that commitment and that safety is created, it's where, like you said, it becomes a playground. And I'm not judging people who do this, but if you go from relationship to relationship, you're in that honeymoon phase over and over again. And I just found that it was through the longness of this relationship that it created the space for me to be with all the different parts of myself because some of my ugliest parts have come out in my relationship with Evan, probably the ugliest parts of me, the cruelest parts, the monstrous parts, the childish parts. But the safety of the container of the relationship allows all those pieces to come up. And when Evan doesn't leave me and he continues to love me too, it allows me to be with it in a new way and to heal. You know? Does that make sense? Like, I think that long term relationship really creates the container for the love to grow.
Kelby Knutt [00:22:38]:
Yeah. You get the same person every day reflecting things back to you versus, like, somebody else every year, which I can speak to that. I dated around from the age of, I don't know, what, 17 to 24. And that doesn't sound like that much time now that I say it, but I dated probably, like, four people or five, and then there were even more just casual kind of encounters wrapped up in there. So I can speak to the fear that comes up. And, you know, I had my fun. I always like to establish that. I had my fun.
Kelby Knutt [00:23:13]:
And I got to see facets of different guys and kind of go, oh, okay. I like this, but I don't like that. Okay. I like this, but I don't like that. So that was good. But, yeah, as far as, like, love developing into something that was more than just either, like, lust or something that happens, I think, when we're young is, like, we get this vision of what love is, and then we try to live into the grandeur of that, which I've been in a relationship with that was like that, where we were just, like, waxing poetic to each other, but then it was all love, you know, in a sense, but there was no actual, like, real world backing to that. So I think that's a big part of it too. Like, is love enough for a relationship to really thrive? Like, you know, in my experience, it's not.
Kelby Knutt [00:24:01]:
Like, do your values line up and all of that? So I don't know if we wanna get into that now, but is love even enough for a relationship to to thrive?
Amanda Durocher [00:24:11]:
Oh, that's such a interesting question. I think I don't know. I think that you can love somebody, and I'm sure people who have gotten divorced feel this way. Like, you can still love that person and no longer be with them. So I don't know if love is all a relationship needs or takes. You know? Yeah. Agreed. Because you can especially, say, you have children with somebody.
Amanda Durocher [00:24:33]:
You know? In some relationships, not all, but some relationships, you probably still do love that person, but you know that for you and your journey of life, you couldn't be with that person anymore. And I think it goes to values a lot of time. As you mentioned, I think in relationship, I have found aligning values to be one of the most important things. Evan and I have very similar values. We differ on so many things, but our values are the same.
Kelby Knutt [00:24:57]:
I think it's important too. At least similar values because it just can get a little weird if that's not the case. But if you guys you know, if you both value freedom, which I think Kai and I do, you know, it's like we love each other, and we make it a priority that we both have our own things going on and that we have these, like, autonomous moments where we're making decisions for ourself. And we can kind of ebb and flow where, like, he goes and does his thing, and I do mine. Right? So there's an element there too of, like, is that part of love, though? I don't know. I mean, because, you know, it goes back to the unconditional. Do I love you unconditionally even though our values are not aligned? That's an interesting one.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:39]:
Well, it's interesting because I actually had a value shift about a year ago, and so I wondered if Evan and I could stay together. And spoiler alert, we're still together. But I used to safety used to be my number one value. And because of all the trauma I experienced, safety was it. So I needed to feel safe. At all times, I prioritize safety. And then I probably had compassion, and Evan and I really align on truth. It's really important for both of us.
Amanda Durocher [00:26:05]:
And when safety was no longer my main value. I still value safety, but I believe when we can pick three values and align our life in coherence with those values, all our decisions can be made from that. Safety no longer wanted to be my number one thing because I already feel safe. So I feel safe in my body. I feel safe in the world. So I didn't need it to be something I thought about all the time. So now my values are freedom, compassion, and truth. And when I shifted it, I was like, are Evan and I still aligned? Because safety is really important for him.
Amanda Durocher [00:26:40]:
And there was, like, a little period where I wanted to do things that were a little bit more adventurous, and Evan was like, why are we doing this? Like, I like to do these type of things. Whatever. And it was, like, a little rocky, but I kept voicing, like, that's just not my main priority anymore. Like, now I feel a little caged when I'm prioritizing safety above all else. And it was just we realigned our values differently. But I think values can shift. So if somebody doesn't shift with you or if you shift in two different directions, I could see it no longer aligning. But I would still have loved him if he had chosen that he couldn't do that journey with me.
Kelby Knutt [00:27:16]:
Of course. And there's a conversation to be had there with your partner if that becomes apparent that there's a shift happening. But what's really cool too is how love could encompass all of those values. Like, I've worked with a couple before where we broke down, like, what does it mean for you to feel loved? And each one of them had different answers, and one of them was like, well, I feel free when I'm loved. Okay. And then the other one, I feel safe when I'm loved. So it's like love can encapsulate those other values too Yeah. Which is so funny.
Kelby Knutt [00:27:50]:
So it's like, yeah, love really is different for everyone, and that's why the definition can be tricky. I certainly wouldn't say, like, for everybody, love is safety, or for everybody, love is, you know, excitement and adventure. That's just not true. If you're interested in being more loving, there is work on your part of deciding what is love for you in particular.
Amanda Durocher [00:28:13]:
And I think it's worth talking about with your significant other because I'm thinking about it right now. I'm like, I don't know if Evan and I have ever defined what love is. Like, we've defined a relationship mission statement, and we've defined our values and things like that. But I'm thinking about it right now. I'm like, I should probably talk to Evan. Like, what is love to both of us? Because I think so many times we forget to have these type of conversations in relationships. And when we can align and just talk about them, we learn what the other person feels. I think so many times with so many of the things we talk about on this podcast, conversations with our significant others are important.
Kelby Knutt [00:28:46]:
And with ourselves too. I think there's an element too with love of, like, making up for what we didn't feel in our childhood.
Amanda Durocher [00:28:54]:
Mhmm.
Kelby Knutt [00:28:54]:
So for me, connection is a big one, and it's because I disconnected myself quite a bit in my childhood, and I isolated myself. So, therefore, even though I do value freedom, connection is also part of that, which is kinda funny. Freedom and connection. But you absolutely can have both. Connection is, well, different for everybody too, but connection could just be we're making eye contact for a few seconds, and we're reconnecting, or we vow to not use our phones in bed at night and to, like, cuddle or whatever it means for you to connect. Usually, it doesn't involve phones, so I would say across the board.
Amanda Durocher [00:29:34]:
Yeah.
Kelby Knutt [00:29:35]:
Yeah. Phones are not involved in connection or love a lot of the time.
Amanda Durocher [00:29:39]:
Of course, freedom and connection can go together, though. To me, freedom freedom for me, what I realized is just freedom from all those limiting beliefs. Mhmm. When I don't feel tied down to fear, I feel free. I could be anywhere, and I'd feel free if I wasn't afraid. So you could totally be connecting and feel free at the same time. Yeah. But maybe freedom's different for you.
Amanda Durocher [00:30:01]:
I'm like, now we're trying to define a whole another word. Well,
Kelby Knutt [00:30:05]:
and we're doing that, I think, because freedom is part of love for us. Yes. That's why I wanted to make it clear. Like, we're talking about love for us. Yeah. You know, what is love for you? It's worth putting the thought and reflection into decide because we can only speak to our experience of love. Yeah. But I think no matter what, there's gonna be effort involved in loving, and there's gonna be inner exploration involved.
Kelby Knutt [00:30:33]:
And it's worth doing that because, yeah, we get to fill in the gaps of whatever we didn't feel in childhood, which it's like it helps us make ourselves whole again.
Amanda Durocher [00:30:44]:
Definitely. That's why safety was one of mine. I didn't feel safe in my childhood. I experienced a lot of sexual trauma, so did not feel safe. And a whole another topic, but safety just became really important for me for a very long time.
Kelby Knutt [00:30:58]:
Safety. I think that has been a big one for me as well, and Kai has helped me with that. And I've helped myself too, like bringing myself into the present and not reliving the past over and over and putting myself in the past over and over. And that's part of love for me too. When we do the inner exploration to figure out what we're needing and, like, what is love for us, then we can kind of let our partner know that because they can't read our mind. They don't know. They
Amanda Durocher [00:31:25]:
Yes. Let's bust a love myth that your partner will never be able to read your mind. Like, I used to think when I was in my twenties that Evan and I would be madly in love if he could read my mind, and he knew what I wanted before I wanted it. And when he didn't know what I wanted before I wanted it or he didn't know what I wanted when I wanted it, I was, like, so angry. And I really was like, I don't know if we should be together. Like, you should've just known that. So I just wanted to clear that that your your partner does not know how to read your mind. And I think that's a belief from the movies.
Amanda Durocher [00:31:57]:
I don't know. Yeah. But, no, we're human. We can't read each other's minds. And if somebody doesn't know what you want before you tell them, it doesn't mean they don't love you.
Kelby Knutt [00:32:08]:
No. In fact, isn't it wonderful? That means you get to explore each other, and you'll never really know your partner a %, which is a good thing. That means there's always room for excitement and newness. Yes.
Amanda Durocher [00:32:25]:
I know. When I was first with Evan, I really thought we had to be the same. And when we were different, it would, like, scare me or I'd get triggered, and I'd be like, ah. And now I love when he is different from me because I say this about all people in my life, but when somebody is different than me, I know they're being true to themselves. I actually love it. I'm like, when somebody challenges me on a belief or we disagree, I'm like, oh, good. That's how you really feel. Like, I'm getting to know you.
Amanda Durocher [00:32:50]:
You're not just agreeing with me to be, like, placating or whatever. It's a gift to get to see somebody's difference, and it's a gift to be able to see somebody's differences and get to think about mine some more. Like, when I disagree with people, especially with Evan, I get to think, like, how do I really feel about this? It challenges my thinking in a good way because I think our thinking can always be challenged. Yeah. It's not a bad thing.
Kelby Knutt [00:33:11]:
I think there's a oh, and this is something that I wanna discuss a little bit more is, like, love doesn't try to control, and that's something I've learned with Kai.
Amanda Durocher [00:33:21]:
That's a good one.
Kelby Knutt [00:33:22]:
Yeah. I've really learned you know, control is something that I thought that I had before. It's just
Amanda Durocher [00:33:28]:
It's so human. Me too.
Kelby Knutt [00:33:30]:
Yeah. Which is funny. Like, why would you even want control? Like, what I don't know what I need. I don't know I I don't know anything. Like, just take me out of the driver's seat, please, actually, and just let things happen because it's too hard to believe that you could possibly control everything, including your partner, a whole ass human being. Like, I'm sorry. And I've tried to do that game with Kai before where he's an eccentric person, part of why I absolutely adore him. He's exciting and eccentric.
Kelby Knutt [00:34:00]:
He's bold and blunt. Right? He says what's on his mind. That's part of why I actually love him is because he fills that gap for me where I've been so fearful of what if I say this, and what would they think of me, and what if I'm perceived as a bad person or whatever. Right? And Kai just comes in, and he's like, yeah. I don't give a fuck. So I've tried to control and do the thing where you pinch your partner under the table. Why did you just say that? And I've gotten to the point where I'm like, just let the man say whatever the hell he wants. Why would you try to control a wild horse? You know? Let the horse run free and just see what happens.
Kelby Knutt [00:34:36]:
If they step on a rock, they'll figure it out. I don't know. Why do I need to try to tame this horse? I don't want to do that.
Amanda Durocher [00:34:43]:
It's funny too because I think that sometimes at least I found this in my relationship when I used to try and control Evan. It was because I over identified with him, and I thought he was, like, a reflection of me. So I was like, you can't do that because then people are gonna think this about me. And the truth is Evan's his own person, as am I, and Evan can be whoever he wants to be. And it's same thing with what you just described that Evan I always joke he speaks in hyperbole, so he speaks very extreme. And that used to trigger me because I was like, people don't understand what you're saying. Like, oh my gosh. But that was because it was my own shit coming up.
Amanda Durocher [00:35:20]:
Like, I'm a very articulate person, and it's because so many of my words throughout my life have been misconstrued and used against me. So I'm so thoughtful with how I speak to a fault. But when he just speaks his mind and he speaks freely, I'm like, ah, that's scary. But, again, it had nothing to really do with him. It was me being like, you're a reflection of me. And the truth is Evan can speak how he wants. I can speak how I want. Everybody can just be themselves.
Amanda Durocher [00:35:48]:
It's that freedom thing. If I want freedom, I have to allow him to be free too.
Kelby Knutt [00:35:51]:
And by allowing him to be free, which allowing that's a weird word, but I'm just gonna say it. Allowing him to be free, you're allowing yourself to be free because you don't have to be on edge about what he's saying, and then it's like a cool, like, cycle that happens. And I think part of it too is, like, acknowledging that the thing that might bother you about your partner, it could be anything, but, for example, with Kai being eccentric and saying, you know, kind of goofy off color things. That's part of why I love him. I don't Yeah. Want a partner that's gonna sit there all stoic and only say the kind, you know, correct thing. I don't want that. That's boring.
Kelby Knutt [00:36:30]:
I'm bored just even talking about it. You know? Like, ugh. So I love that about him. You know? And so part of love is, like, can we accept that this is a whole other individual? And I actually wanna share another definition of love that came to me just now. Part of a deeply loving partnership is that it's two individuals who acknowledge their individuality, And therefore, because they are fully developed individuals that are, like, rooted in that, they can come together and work through their shit in a way that it's like a well oiled machine. Like, you can just keep coming back together and working together on your stuff and in a reliable and safe way. And there's more to it, but I like the idea that, like, okay. You're you.
Kelby Knutt [00:37:27]:
I'm me. We have this perfect reflection and dynamic going on here, so let's, like, work on our stuff and, you know, shoot up into the fucking moon together.
Amanda Durocher [00:37:38]:
When you were talking, I'm seeing, like, the infinity symbol. So it's like you come together and then you go out and then you circle back, you come together. You know? But it's like this perfect symbol. I don't know. I'm just seeing that in my head, and I see that so many times. And it goes back to in my head what we were talking about too with this and that are true. So it's you're both individuals, and you're both also a partnership at the same time. Yes.
Amanda Durocher [00:37:59]:
And it's
Kelby Knutt [00:37:59]:
a learning curve. Like, in my coaching yeah. In my in my coaching certification for relationships specifically, we learned that there are three stages of a relationship, and the first stage is, like, unconscious coupling. The second one is, like, becoming conscious, and that's the stage where you start to figure out, like, oh, I have my shit, and they're a projection of my shit. And then you, like, you're working through that. And this third stage I forget what it's called. It's like enlightenment or whatever. You know, one of those things.
Kelby Knutt [00:38:31]:
And it's where you've kind of perfected this process of doing that. I'm gonna say up leveling. I don't know how else to call it in this moment right now, but you've perfected that machine of, like, okay. We're gonna keep, yeah, the infinity symbol. And so it is a learning curve. It's takes time.
Amanda Durocher [00:38:49]:
I think that's big to mention here too, and I think we mentioned in every episode, but relationships can be messy. They can also be really beautiful, but a lot of this takes time. And I think that's also what's the beauty of long term relationships is that to do this dance, that's what it feels like to me, a dance with the infinity symbol, is it takes time. It's not overnight. You know? I think the best things in life actually take time. And you wouldn't know how to do it overnight because you're getting to know each other. Right? So at the beginning of relationship, you are really getting to know each other. And then over time, you still get to know different quirks and things like this about your partner.
Amanda Durocher [00:39:25]:
And I also find when that honeymoon phase starts to fade, it's when you start to see the other person a little bit more clearly. And so then you're, like, getting to know a new part of them. So just takes time. You know? There's no rush with it either. And some days, you may feel like you're in that up level, so to speak, and some days, you may feel like you're, like, back at stage one. You know? I don't know.
Kelby Knutt [00:39:44]:
Absolutely. Actually, when you say honeymoon, I think that's actually what the first stage of this process that I mentioned was. It's the honeymoon way. Unconscious. Right? Because you're unconsciously being bought into this projection of this person is everything I've ever wanted and more. And then, you know, consciousness slaps you in the face, and you're like, oh, shit. No. Okay.
Kelby Knutt [00:40:04]:
Never mind. Right? So, yeah, I think honeymoon is the first Mhmm. Stage of that, which would make sense. Yeah. So it takes time. It's not perfect. There are the ups and the downs that we're gonna be talking about more in this podcast, how to navigate those ups and downs. But I think we'll always kind of end in the same place, and I think you've said that you are always saying this in your podcast.
Kelby Knutt [00:40:28]:
And can you be gracious to yourself as you move through these iterations of your relationship? And can you be gracious to your partner as well and just know that, you know, there's no right or wrong? We just we love each other. We show up in love, and there's messiness, and there's chaos sometimes. And, also, I love this person. You know? At the bottom of my heart, I love this person.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:55]:
I think compassion goes back to love all the time where can you be kind to yourself throughout this process? And if you're kind to yourself throughout this process and compassionate with yourself and your partner, even if it's an, quote, unquote, ugly moment, you're still being loving because you're bringing in that grace, that graciousness, and that compassion for yourself and your partner, and it just softens the space.
Kelby Knutt [00:41:16]:
And it gets easier to go there with time. I've noticed, like, there used to be arguments that we'd have where I couldn't be loving for, you know, a day after. And now it's gotten to the point where we have an argument, and fifteen minutes later, I'm back in that loving place of, oh, that was my stuff. Or it could even take a few days if it's a particularly big argument or situation, but I've flexed that muscle so many times. And I just know now. Like, it's always me. And I'm not saying it's always my fault. It's always my projection.
Kelby Knutt [00:41:48]:
So what happened inside of me that created this projection. And that doesn't mean I can't make requests of Kai to do something a certain way, but it's always my projection.
Amanda Durocher [00:41:59]:
I find that compassion helps too because at this point in my relationship to when Evan has a trigger, I can show up compassionately, and it, like, softens it right away. And he's like, yeah. That's a me thing. And same in reverse. I'll have a reaction, and he'll be like, what's really going on? And then it softens the space. And it can be pretty immediate if the other person can learn to also notice, like, oh, that's not about me. Your reaction right now is not about me. But that has taken me and Evan a very long time.
Kelby Knutt [00:42:30]:
Well, you're talking about, like, coming to terms with beliefs that you have based on what you've experienced in the world, including in your childhood, which can be really sensitive to get into. But I think it's really helpful to know what our partner's childhood experiences were. Not so that we can, like, diagnose them or, you know, therapize them, but just so we can be compassionate. Even if it's just inside of myself. Okay. This thing is happening for him, and, like, I'm just gonna give him time to process that, and that's okay.
Amanda Durocher [00:42:58]:
Yeah. Learning to not take it all so personally. You know? And that's in all relationships, just finding ways to see, like, oh, that wasn't really about me. Yeah. It's funny, though, because so many times, it does feel personal.
Kelby Knutt [00:43:11]:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. We like to torment ourselves. I noticed. That's why I think love for me, for myself is like, I don't have to torment myself anymore. Yeah. So if I stop tormenting myself, things don't stop happening.
Amanda Durocher [00:43:26]:
Through this episode, have you come up with your own definition for love?
Kelby Knutt [00:43:30]:
Love for me right now is being willing to open my heart and my mind to the absolute beauty and perfection that is happening all the time around me, including in my partner and just appreciating the experience that I'm having as the creator of that experience. That's kind of a general. That doesn't, I guess, have to do with my romantic partnership, but it kinda does. Like, recently, I look at Kai, and I'm just like, I created this whole experience. How fucking incredible is that? That's love.
Amanda Durocher [00:44:05]:
As we've talked for me, it's also more general. It's not just relationship, but I think love for me is choosing to see the beauty in the human experience.
Kelby Knutt [00:44:15]:
Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:44:15]:
And that includes all of it.
Kelby Knutt [00:44:17]:
Choosing Yeah. To see. Those are such important words because, again, it's an action. I am choosing, and it becomes automatic sometimes at a certain point. But, yeah, choosing. I'm choosing to open myself up to this experience.
Amanda Durocher [00:44:34]:
Yeah. That's love, everybody.
Kelby Knutt [00:44:36]:
That's that's what love is in a nutshell. Yeah. So we encourage you to explore, what is it for you? Is it any of the things that we said? Maybe it's, like, a part of it. Maybe there's more to it for you. But that's the joy of this life. You get to explore that in your own experience as the creator of your experience.
Amanda Durocher [00:45:01]:
Profound words by Kelby.
Kelby Knutt [00:45:02]:
Yes.
Amanda Durocher [00:45:03]:
Yes. Yeah. But we would love to hear your versions of love or if you have a definition for love or if you wanna challenge us on ours. I'm always open, as I said, to being challenged. So if you are interested in reaching out to us, we have an Instagram at love under the scope, and we also have an email, loveunderthescope@gmail.com. And you could reach out, and we would love to, in future episodes, dive into questions that all of you have or topics you wanna hear us talk about or just ideas. Yeah. I'll mention too that a lot of
Kelby Knutt [00:45:37]:
what we talked about today, including the self love piece, I work with clients on in my personal work. And if you're interested in that, we're either working together or maybe you have a question, you can reach out to me directly on Instagram at Kelby Knutt, and I am happy to chat there.
Amanda Durocher [00:46:00]:
Yes. And I have worked with Kelby myself now, and I can give her a five star rating.
Kelby Knutt [00:46:04]:
Oh, thank you.
Amanda Durocher [00:46:05]:
Highly, highly recommend.
Kelby Knutt [00:46:07]:
I really enjoy my work. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing from any of you guys, and we will see you next time.
Amanda Durocher [00:46:14]:
Where we continue to look at love under the scope.
Kelby Knutt [00:46:24]:
Love Under the Scope is a new view advice production. Theme music by Tyler Knut. The podcast is produced by Amanda Durocher.