3: Arguments in Long-Term Relationships: The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly

Mar 25

In this episode, Amanda and Kelby dive into the complexities of arguments within long-term relationships. They discuss how childhood experiences and inner child wounds often resurface during disputes with partners. The hosts emphasize the importance of self-awareness, communication, and compassion in navigating these inevitable misunderstandings.

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They offer practical tips and share personal stories on identifying triggers, repairing after conflicts, and fostering emotional intelligence for a healthier, more connected relationship. Whether you're new to navigating relationship arguments or seeking to deepen your bond with your partner, this episode is here as a guide for navigating the inevitable conflicts that happen in long-term relationships.

Book Recommendations

Anger: Wisdom for Cooling the Flames by Thich Nhat Hanh

Interested in Learning More about Kelby’s Coaching Services?

Check out Kelby’s Website to learn more
Or email her at - coachedbykelby@gmail.com

Looking to learn more about Amanda?

Check out Reflections to learn more about Amanda’s Healing Journey

Connect with Amanda & Kelby to keep the love going all week!

This podcast was transcribed by an AI tool called Castmagic. Please forgive any typos or errors.
Kelby Knutt [00:00:09]:
Love under the scope.
Amanda Durocher [00:00:16]:
Welcome to Love Under the Scope. I'm Amanda Durocher.
Kelby Knutt [00:00:19]:
And I'm Kelby Knutt. And this is a podcast where we talk about long term relationships and all of the ups and downs, and, we share some of our perspectives, what we've experienced in our long term relationships. And we just hope to normalize all of the things that can happen when you're in a deep bond like this with another human being.
Amanda Durocher [00:00:42]:
We decided to start this podcast because we wanted to have some conversations that we didn't see along the way when we were first in our relationships, and we wanted to normalize that relationships are beautiful, wonderful, the best things that we're in, and also can have challenges.
Kelby Knutt [00:00:58]:
Yeah. They can bring us down to our knees. In fact, that's pretty normal for that to happen. And, actually, speaking of being brought to our knees, we're gonna be talking about arguments in relationships today.
Amanda Durocher [00:01:11]:
Yes. In this episode, we're gonna be discussing how in long term relationships, arguments are bound to happen and how we can learn to navigate these inevitable misunderstandings with more compassion and love for ourselves and our partners because I know that along the way in my journey with my relationship, I always felt so much shame every time I argued with Evan. I felt like we weren't supposed to fight.
Kelby Knutt [00:01:33]:
Yeah. I have felt the same thing where you almost question, you know, are we meant to be together? If we're argue, isn't everything supposed to be perfect and wonderful, and we're skipping through a field of flowers all the time, and we're just so in love. And the fact of the matter is that's just not realistic. And we can feel that sometimes, that deep, deep love, and then other times, it can feel frustrating to relate to another human being.
Amanda Durocher [00:02:01]:
Yeah. I think that I also thought I'd get to a point where Evan and I stopped fighting, where I healed enough, and we would never have a fight again. And, again, that's unrealistic. We are two different humans with two different experiences and two different daily experiences. Right? I think for me and Evan, when one of us is really stressed, it's when we tend to fight more than other times. It's stress is usually a trigger. And let's be honest, it's 2025. We live in a stressful world.
Kelby Knutt [00:02:27]:
Yeah. Yes. That's great naming that. And I like how you said, you know, we're two different human beings with different experiences. In my coaching, I was taught, and I love this, that we are two humans, two hearts, two different filters, two different lived experiences, nervous systems. You could go on and on coming together and trying to make this thing work. Right? And I think that kind of brings us to the beginning. Right? Like, the lived experience that we both have our own experience.
Kelby Knutt [00:03:00]:
And so we're talking about childhood wounds. Right? That's where a lot of, in my opinion, these arguments will stem from. And so that's kind of where we'll start off talking about, you know, what did your childhood look like, and how does that relate to the argument you are in today?
Amanda Durocher [00:03:17]:
Because I think that, as you mentioned, it's two people coming into relationship who are bringing baggage with them. Right? When we are in a romantic partnership, it's different than other relationships because especially when you live together, things are bound to come up, and you can't avoid them in order to continue to live together. You know, if you have a fight with a friend, you can just not respond to them or you cannot see them for a little bit. Or with your family who you no longer live with, you can just kind of avoid it after the holidays or something. But with your romantic partner, you can't avoid it, and that's so healing as we talked about last week with the inner child, but it also can be really triggering.
Kelby Knutt [00:03:53]:
Yeah. Your partner essentially is like a mirror for all of your experiences, the painful and the joyful. Right? And the painful ones, they're not easy to look at a lot of the time. And I think a lot of us, myself included, will want to turn away from our partner when they're reflecting those things back to us consciously or not. So being in an argument, it's kind of like, are you willing to face what you have been through, and are you willing to hash it out and look at it with this other person who seemingly, you want them to love you forever. Right? So sometimes it's like, oh, I don't want them to see this stuff. What the heck? This is really, really painful. So, yeah, it's not it's not easy.
Amanda Durocher [00:04:44]:
First, I have a question. Did you live with anybody before Kai, or was he your first lady? I did.
Kelby Knutt [00:04:49]:
Yeah. I did. Yeah. And I was younger, so I think I wasn't quite ready to look at my shit, like, my wounds, my stuff. So Kai is really the partner that I got to really step into that with. But I did have some experience with, like, oh, that frustration of living with somebody and, yeah, experiencing that weirdness.
Amanda Durocher [00:05:10]:
Okay. Yeah. I was just curious because I was thinking about how when we move in with somebody, we're kinda recreating those childhood environments that we grew up in because those are what we learned. And so when arguments come up, usually, at least what I found in my experience, is that you tend to argue however you argued as a child, and then you expect them to respond how your family responded. But this is a new person, and sometimes they might respond the same or it's something different. Like, I just noticed with Evan that it was different than how my parents would respond to my responses, which then would trigger me even more because then I didn't know how to resolve the fight because it wasn't going the way I had learned in childhood, which was usually Amanda having a big emotional reaction, somebody yelling at her, Amanda feeling shame, and bottling it up. Evan never yelled at me, so it, like, didn't create the same pattern. So then I would yell at him, and he would just be sad.
Amanda Durocher [00:06:07]:
And I was like, wait. What? Like, it was so hard for me because I was like, wait. You're supposed to yell at me now, and then we both yelled. You know? Like, it was really hard for me because he wasn't responding the way that I had learned, quote, unquote, how to fight as a child.
Kelby Knutt [00:06:20]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting that you say that because it's so true. In my childhood, if I got upset, I would run to my room and slam the door, and I would process everything on my own. And I actually I think I I learned that's how you process emotions by yourself behind a closed door, which now at 30, I'm like, well, that's not true at all. Right? That's not helpful. And Kai is actually the one who helped me to process with another person, which by the way, sometimes I'm like, damn you. Get away from me.
Kelby Knutt [00:06:53]:
It feels so uncomfortable sometimes, but I know deep down that's how I am meant to get through these arguments and this heavy, heavy feeling in my heart is to be met with another person's compassion and, you know, frustration too. Right? He's human also. But, yeah, I I think it can almost feel harder than childhood because in childhood, we learned the way that was safe for us to deal. Right? So if that was going to your room or maybe throwing a tantrum, we did what was safe for us. Well, now, like you said, this partner who is not our parents, they might draw out another facet of how we're gonna deal with this argument, with this conflict.
Amanda Durocher [00:07:36]:
With that, I think we've basically already said it, but I think so often the inner child comes out in these arguments. When we end up fighting with somebody, especially as the argument escalates, it's often the inner child who's I think it's coming out more and more and more as the argument maybe becomes more and more immature.
Kelby Knutt [00:07:58]:
Yeah. Which hearing that, it might sound like, well, no. I'm I'm an adult. Like, I argue as my adult self, but take a second look. You know? Take a magnifying glass to the last argument you had with your partner and really sit with what part of you came forward, what pattern came forward. You know, for me, it can be pointing fingers or wanting to blame. Right?
Amanda Durocher [00:08:20]:
Blame. Yeah. Hundred.
Kelby Knutt [00:08:21]:
Right. Which blaming is not 30 year old me. You know, 30 year old me understands that you can't blame anybody for making you feel anything. Right? But does five year old me understand that? Does 10 year old or or even 15 year old me understand that? No. And she's who comes forward when I'm really in that triggered place, which by the way can happen easily. I can be having the best day. It just happened today. I had a great session with a client.
Kelby Knutt [00:08:50]:
I was, like, floating on a cloud, and then Kai said something, you know, innocuous, not meaning to. And there I was triggered in my whatever age, probably six, seven, eight, ready to take on this conflict from that.
Amanda Durocher [00:09:04]:
It's funny you say that. I'm like, this happened with me and Evan just yesterday. Yeah. Where we had a misunderstanding about timing. We were going out for lunch, and we didn't actually articulate a time. So each of us just made up our own time. So when I thought we were leaving, he got on the phone with his dad, and then I got, like, huffy puffy, you know, kind of, like, stomping around the kitchen. And then he hangs up, and he was like, first off and he just was gonna say something, but I interrupted him right away.
Amanda Durocher [00:09:33]:
And I was like, first off. And I, like, went right at him, and he was like, are you done? And sometimes he plays the parent figure, honestly. He's able to be much more grounded. And he can just kinda call me out sometimes. He's like, are you done? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, did we just have a misunderstanding? And I was like, yeah. He was like, can we move on? I'm like, yeah. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:09:53]:
But it still happens. And I just wanted to bring that up too because we've both been healing for a while. We've both been on our own self love journeys. We've both read the books, done the things, been in the relationships. Still happens.
Kelby Knutt [00:10:05]:
Yeah. But I love your willingness to be, for lack of a better word, parented by him, and I'm sure the rules are reversed sometimes too because I can relate where there are tendencies from my childhood to do things on my own, and I don't need you. And how dare you tell me this x y z? I'm independent. Yada yada yada. Right? So that definitely comes up in conflict, and I can get really defensive. That would actually be probably my first tendency is to defend myself against all odds. Right? Because honestly, the inner child is trying to protect itself from death. I believe it might sound drastic, but when you're a child, you have to rely on your parents in order to survive.
Kelby Knutt [00:10:47]:
So there's always that threat of not surviving. So that's where I'm defending myself from is from that deep fear. Like, I'm gonna survive this, and I'm gonna win right now. And once again, is winning a thing in an argument? Does anybody win?
Amanda Durocher [00:11:03]:
I think about that too. Yeah. Because with winning, I don't think anybody wins in an argument. And it's really about learning to communicate about what the misunderstanding was or what the trigger was and bringing more love to the relationship. That's why I think learning to fight in a healthy way or in a way where you can learn to move past it. You learn how to move past that moment in time. I think so many times when people argue if they don't resolve it or they don't repair it, it lingers and resentment builds, and then the next fight goes back to that fight. Like, when Evan and I were younger, like, in our early twenties, I'm just laughing because so many fights.
Amanda Durocher [00:11:38]:
I was like, and then six months ago when you said x. And he's like, oh, my God. Like, how are you still holding on to that? But I did because we had never figured out how to resolve anything. And I had so much unresolved stuff from my childhood. I felt very unseen and unheard in my childhood. I was just carrying all these moments, and they would all come up at once. And that's why I think we wanna learn how to argue in ways where we can move past things and move forward together.
Kelby Knutt [00:12:04]:
Yeah. And not feel so freaking alone. That's what comes up for me is, like, when you're in an argument and you're doing the thing that I tend to do where I turn away or I go flee, it's so lonely. Even though part of me is doing it, you know, to protect myself from something, another part of me is so sad and so hurt that I've essentially hurt myself, right, by extracting myself from the situation and keeping any communication from happening because I'm in such a fear response. And you can't repair from that place because you're fighting for your life, and you're deeply sad and alone. What a great combination to feel. Right? So it's, like, such a lonely place to be stuck in that kind of a pattern too.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:51]:
And I think also with the loneliness, it's like those thoughts start that we talked about at the beginning of the episode where it's like, I'm the only one who feels this way. I'm the only one who responds this way. I've had some really immature reactions along the way, and I judge myself the most for those. And it makes me feel even more alone because I don't feel like there's anybody I can call or I can talk to because I'm so afraid I'll be judged by society or my friends or my family or whoever that it just continues this lonely cycle.
Kelby Knutt [00:13:18]:
Which, weirdly enough, like, again, it can feel safe to one part of you. But deep down, is it safe to be alone and to not be willing to meet your partner in the mess, in the confusion and the emotion. You know? Is it really safe? Right? And I think part of you know, a lot of these things don't make sense. You know, we're talking about the inner child. We're talking about the reasoning of a five year old or a 10 year old. Now children are beautiful, alive, full of wonder. Are they known for their reasoning skills and their logical awareness? Not really. So if we're making decisions in an argument from the place of a five year old, but it begs the question of how far are we really gonna get.
Amanda Durocher [00:14:07]:
Yeah. I think it's really sad too that so many of us learned in childhood that we had to deal with it alone. That's, like, a reality that is true, that so many of us live with that wounding still that we were expected to figure out our emotions by ourselves.
Kelby Knutt [00:14:23]:
Yeah. That's true. We're we're just starting I think society as a whole is really starting to recognize how important it is to allow children to be in their emotion and be comforted and be soothed. Right? Because there's this idea of, like, oh, tough love. Let them cry it out. And I think we're moving more towards, no. We need to teach them what soothing feels like so they can then do that for themselves, and they can do that for other people and their partner included. So you have this inner child coming up.
Kelby Knutt [00:14:53]:
Right? And let's say your partner has gone through, you know, some childhood wounding themself. So now you've got two inner children who are arguing, and that's a mess.
Amanda Durocher [00:15:04]:
Yeah. Who likely didn't learn how to have their feelings in a healthy way. I think many people especially if you're listening to this podcast, your parents probably weren't the most emotionally mature people, and I think that's normal. I think for so many of us, our parents weren't intelligent with their feelings. And I just mentioned that because when you usually enter these long term relationships, it's two people learning how to be emotional with each other in a new way that they often didn't see mirrored for them by their parents.
Kelby Knutt [00:15:35]:
Yeah. It's like you're trying to figure it out one day at a time, which is easier said than done. So I think it's totally worth it to, first of all, do some work with your inner child and, you know, we can go back to our episode two and learn a little bit more about that. But, yeah, sitting with your inner child and what's there, what is the pain, what were the patterns that you went through over and over in your childhood, how did you deal with hurt, with pain, and how are you bringing that into the relationship today? Because being able to own that and have the awareness of that is really the first step in starting to navigate these arguments however explosive they are or even if it's a little tiff. Right? That's how we can learn to navigate these events.
Amanda Durocher [00:16:27]:
Yeah. Because what I wanted to bring up too is that it is usually the inner child who's triggered, and that relationship with your inner child is really important to start developing because in the middle of the argument, especially when you haven't done any inner childbirth, is going to be the hardest time to begin being emotionally intelligent and emotionally mature and doing these things in the middle of an argument. But so often, we don't wanna think about arguments or think about the hard work until we're triggered. And I think the fighting brings up the triggers, but in the moment, it can be the hardest time to do the work.
Kelby Knutt [00:17:01]:
Yes. It it really is. It that's so true. It takes time to do these things. But, yeah, can we start to do them maybe in these little tiffs like I had with Kai earlier today? It was a small exchange, but there was frustration there for me. See, that's easier for me to navigate and go, oh, this is what's happening. He Mhmm. Said this, which I put my filter on.
Kelby Knutt [00:17:22]:
So when he said this, I heard this other thing that he didn't even say. Right? And it could have been so small about doing the dishes or whatever. Right? But because it's a smaller argument, a a little misunderstanding, it's a little easier to go into my inner child space and go, oh, this is what's happening. I took it this way because I have my inner child ears on. Right? And, therefore, maybe I could respond this way or how can I hold myself with compassion through this and also show up to this argument with more compassion, right, and not go into attack mode defense?
Amanda Durocher [00:17:59]:
Are you able to do that in the moment now, or do you step away and meditate or journal? How do you handle those situations?
Kelby Knutt [00:18:06]:
It depends. It's been a little while since we had a bigger argument. So, like, in the little ones, I do feel like I can navigate those better. Although I do still feel triggered, I do feel like I can go inside and I can acknowledge, like, this is the filter I'm putting on this now. Right? This is my shit. Okay? I'm in my shit. And Kai, he might be in his too, but I can only take responsibility for my shit. So here's how I'm gonna respond based on that little introspective moment that I just had.
Kelby Knutt [00:18:34]:
And do I need to pull away? Again, if it's a smaller TIFF, I don't because I can act like, real time, I can kind of do that, but you'd have to ask me once we have another bigger argument because that's when it gets a little trickier.
Amanda Durocher [00:18:47]:
Yeah. For me, so often, how Evan responds helps me. So as we talked about, like, when he responds kind of like a parent, and he's like, are you done? Or sometimes, I'm in these really bad moods, and I just look at him. And this is a horrible thing to do. I admit it. But I just, like, know when I start going, I hate you. I hate you. But, like, it's in a little kid voice too, and I'm like, I hate you.
Amanda Durocher [00:19:06]:
I hate you. And he's like, is that true? And I'm like, no. He's like, who do you really hate right now? And he makes me, like, think. And I'm like, oh, yeah. It's not you I'm mad at. Or he'll be like, this isn't about me right now. And I'm like, yeah. You're right.
Amanda Durocher [00:19:21]:
And when he's able to respond in this, like, parental way, honestly, it helps me to come out of that child response quicker. And he'll also use humor. I use humor right back at him. Like, when I respond to something he does, like a blaming thing, sometimes he'll blame me for something. And if I respond with humor, we're both able to deescalate it much quicker. But when those two inner children start coming out, sometimes I'm able to handle in the moment, but when both inner children come out, it oftentimes, at least for me and our relationship, takes a few moments apart. Me being like, I'm just gonna go in the other room for a second, and then I'm able to kinda think clearer and figure out what my part was, what his part was, and what was really going on there. So it depends on the situation.
Kelby Knutt [00:20:03]:
I totally agree. It's funny when you're saying, like, I hate you. What I think of is, like, our inner brat. Like, it's like, we're like a little brat. I mean, it's just true. And can our partner understand that? I even told Kai one time, you know, when I get in that mode, I'm not trying to give myself an excuse, but I'm not actually mad. I'm just scared or I'm just not understanding. And I think after some time, he really did see, like, oh, she's not so angry at me.
Kelby Knutt [00:20:29]:
She's just scared or something. Mhmm. And then he was able to be a little bit more like that parent that you talked about. And that's honestly really special. What I'm hearing that you guys have that dynamic, that vulnerability that you guys have with each other, it makes the process so much smoother. Like, the entire relationship has, like, this smoothness because you know, like, okay. We can repair. We can always repair.
Amanda Durocher [00:20:53]:
Yeah. And with that, I wanna say Evan and I have been together almost fourteen years, and that took time. So if anybody out there is like, how do you get there? Some of this is time. You know? It's work. It's both you and your partner taking the time to have the messy fights and seeing what works and what doesn't. Over time, you understand what you can say that can deescalate it in the moment, or you begin to recognize the patterns in the relationship where you go, oh, that's not about me. That's a you pattern. Or yourself too.
Amanda Durocher [00:21:21]:
You can go like, oh, yeah. That's up again. That's a me thing. And you catch it quicker because you start to bring that awareness into the arguments.
Kelby Knutt [00:21:29]:
I I wanna share a practical step for doing that. Actually, I heard this from Brene Brown. She's talking about the stories that we tell ourself, and I actually used this today in the TIFF that I mentioned with Kai where he said something. And, gosh, I can't remember what he said, but it doesn't really matter. He said something. Again, I put my filter on it. And then in order to put it out on the table, what was going on, and to clear the air, I used Brene Brown's technique of saying this is the story that I told myself.
Amanda Durocher [00:22:01]:
Mhmm.
Kelby Knutt [00:22:01]:
And so I said, oh, I thought you were saying you were blaming me for this thing and saying that I ruined x y z. And he's like, when did I say he was very kind about it, but he basically was like, well, those words did not come from my mouth. They came from your mind. Right? Again, in a very loving and kind way. And then we were able to go from there because he then understands, oh, that's what she heard, and that's why we're here now.
Amanda Durocher [00:22:31]:
I love that you bring that up too because I actually find with Evan and I, the stories we can tell that can lead to us both being triggered do do with blame. So when he thinks I'm blaming him for something or I think he's blaming me for something, that inner child, like, always comes out. But it's oftentimes, I think he's blaming me or he thinks I'm blaming him. But it's just hearing you talk about the blame. I'm like, yes. Blame just leads to fights. Like, it leads to fights. So if you're actually blaming somebody, you probably will end up in a fight.
Amanda Durocher [00:23:00]:
And if somebody thinks you're blaming them, it can also trigger a fight or, response that feels fight esque.
Kelby Knutt [00:23:06]:
Oh, I would defend, defend, defend. That's how I felt earlier today. My immediate response was, well, he's saying that it's my fault that this happened. Deep down, I don't wanna disappoint him. Right? Because that's part of it is I hear in his tone. Right? Through my filter, I sense disappointment even if it's not there. Therefore, I disappointed him. Right? I think the inner child also will automatically take blame because that's that's a very inner child thing is it's my fault.
Kelby Knutt [00:23:33]:
Right? Because we don't wanna blame mom and dad because they are everything to us, and they do no wrong at that point of our life.
Amanda Durocher [00:23:39]:
Mhmm.
Kelby Knutt [00:23:39]:
And so, therefore, it must be my fault. I must be unlovable. And we bring that into our relationship where we hear a certain tone, we hear a certain word, and we're just triggered. And I think there's something there too about can we have a little pause in between the tone or the word? Okay. Pause before the trigger comes in, or maybe the trigger comes in and then we pause. Right? So that we can kind of assess, oh, I'm triggered. What's going on here?
Amanda Durocher [00:24:08]:
That's a great thing to bring up too because I think recognizing our triggers is the first step, recognizing we are triggered, and that does take a pause. Like, what does it feel like in your body when you're triggered? What emotions arise? Do you feel tight in your chest? Do you feel heavy in your head? What does a trigger feel like? And that will help you to connect back to the body, and you can begin to really suss out what's actually happening.
Kelby Knutt [00:24:30]:
Right. And doesn't mean that the argument isn't still gonna happen Yeah. In my experience because the inner child wants to come through so badly. They're very determined, but, you know, can we at least have these stages where we're starting again the awareness and then we're assessing the feeling in the body of the trigger? We're assessing the story we're telling ourself. And, hopefully, that gives a little bit of cushioning for any resulting argument that happens. I do think though we have to speak to, like, the big bad arguments because those are the ones where, in my experience, they'll happen when you're going through a particularly stressful time in your life.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:10]:
Stress. Stress. Yes.
Kelby Knutt [00:25:12]:
Yeah. In my experience, they are situational, but they also have to do with deepening the relationship. So whatever. If you're two years in, you're going on three, maybe that's a part where you feel like you're crossing some threshold of closeness, of deepening. Right? And that can set off combined with the stressful circumstances, that can make for some of the scariest you know, scary as a nervous system scary. Like, I'm feeling set off. Right? The scariest arguments.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:41]:
Did you guys argue at all when you were moving from Florida to Arizona?
Kelby Knutt [00:25:46]:
Oh, fuck. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:46]:
We did. I like that. It feels like a stressful thing. I asked too because Evan and I moved around a lot, and all our fights are always triggered because that sense of security was also triggered when we didn't know where we're gonna live, like, five days from now. And we were like, oh my god. So then I would be really triggered, and he'd know that I really wanted a home, but we hadn't felt like you were saying, it was, like, situational that it was, like, this underlying issue of security. That was what kept coming up for us. Since we didn't feel secure, it just any type of fight would become larger.
Kelby Knutt [00:26:15]:
Yeah. Oh, and it was some of it was over the dumbest stuff. Like, one of our arguments was, when should we get rid of the area rug? Should we do it today? If it was up to Kai, we gotta get rid of this today. If it was up to me, we're not moving for another three weeks and I need this area rug. Okay? This is what's making me feel safe right now. You know? It's, like, really soft on my feet and I feel like I have no foundation, therefore, we are not getting rid of the area rug. So, yeah, some of the dumbest stuff. But once we moved to Arizona and we had a few months here, we had a couple arguments that really, really rocked us.
Kelby Knutt [00:26:52]:
Like, disgusting breaking up, which is one of our kryptonites, and and we're getting a lot better about this is, like, well, let's just break up. Yes.
Amanda Durocher [00:27:00]:
That's my go to. We should just end the relationship. Evan doesn't do that, but I do that, and it's not a good one.
Kelby Knutt [00:27:07]:
No. Oh, it's not. It's the worst. We made a pact this last time that we will not say that again. But, yeah, it's like a I don't know. Like, a ninja star is what I think of.
Amanda Durocher [00:27:15]:
Like Yeah. It's like, I'm gonna hit you where it hurts. Yes. I'm gonna threaten to leave you, AKA take my love from you, AKA yeah. Like, end this, you know, and then make them almost feel like they did something so wrong that you would leave.
Kelby Knutt [00:27:28]:
Oh, yeah. Oh, it's like such a big desire to just be like, oh, yeah. I wanna hurt them. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:27:35]:
You become like it feels like that inner teenager for me, and she'll just hit you where it hurts. I think most teenagers have a gift for doing that, like, knowing how to just slice with their words, and I know mine does. And Mhmm. Yeah. It's not nice or kind or loving or compassionate to do that. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen, though. You know?
Kelby Knutt [00:27:54]:
No. No. And I think it can be even detrimental to the relationship because they're you're cutting at the sense of safety that you have with each other.
Amanda Durocher [00:28:03]:
Yeah.
Kelby Knutt [00:28:04]:
And, you know, like I said, we did deal that card to each other in our last argument. I will say, I think, in this particular argument, it brought us to a place of we're able to repair in a way that felt really, really healing. And not just healing, but, like, it brought us to the next level. And I hesitate to say that because I don't wanna imply that in order to go deeper or to go to the next level, you have to argue like this. But it's just the way that it happened for me and Kai. And I feared we would break up. I really did. And because of that, I really was like, well, I have to face all of my shit right now because I cannot lose this man.
Amanda Durocher [00:28:45]:
Yeah. I'm thinking about my relationship too, and I don't say that to Evan anymore. It doesn't mean I don't think it, but he gave me the ultimatum. He was like, if you say you're gonna leave me one more time, like, I will not come back. And I was like, oh my god. Holy shit. He means it. Wait.
Amanda Durocher [00:29:00]:
No. No. No. No. No. No. Like, he he he reversed it on me because I used it as my out. Right? Like, he would never tell me he'd leave me.
Amanda Durocher [00:29:08]:
So I kept telling him I would leave him, and then he was finally like, fine. I will not walk back through that door. And like you were saying, it was like, oh my god. Like, where is this coming from? Like, I had to look in the mirror because it was like, I can't keep doing this. Because it was the first moment he was vulnerable enough to let me know how much that really hurt him. Yeah. You know, I didn't understand how much I was hurting him every time I said it. And, yeah, it's just like you're saying.
Amanda Durocher [00:29:31]:
I don't wanna say you have to fight either, but I think sometimes our lowest moments can lead to our greatest change. And isn't that true about life? Like, don't our traumas show us our deepest scars but lead to, like, our deepest healings? I mean, I watch Batman. I'm always referencing Batman if you listen to any of my podcasts. But, like, one of the lines is, like, suffering builds character. It's like as humans haven't figured out a way for this not to be our journey, but suffering leads to us growing and learning. So sometimes fighting with our partners has the potential to, like you were saying, brings us to a new level in the relationship because we grew together instead of individually.
Kelby Knutt [00:30:08]:
I think that's so true. I think in my experience, it forced me to face how important this relationship was to me. I am not a person who's like, oh, I need this person. Like, I'm very independent. But in that moment, I was like, I actually need this relationship. I can't imagine being without this man. And so I really again, I was not forced because I wanted to face that this is what I'm bringing to the table. And, you know, and Kai has his stuff too.
Kelby Knutt [00:30:42]:
This is not about, like, oh, it's all our fault. Right? We both bring something to the table that can be detrimental. And when we did repair, it was like a handshake. And I say that because it's like an agreement of this is what I promised never to do again. And I hope that you also accept me and my imperfection too, but I promise to never say these words again. And in turn, Kai, this is what I promise to never do again. Right? Handshake, and then you're brought to the next level from there.
Amanda Durocher [00:31:10]:
I think so too. I think that's beautiful. And I just wanted to go back to the independence piece because I think we live in a society where a lot of people are taught to be hyper independent, but we're living in a time where women specifically are being taught that they don't need a man or they don't need this. They don't need support. They don't need anybody else. And I used to feel that way. Like, I don't need anybody. Isn't that what we're doing here? We're healing, so we don't need anything.
Amanda Durocher [00:31:38]:
So untrue. We do need one another. And romantic partnerships are where we get to see that it's okay to need somebody because, I mean, we're not meant to go through life alone. That's crazy. We do need one another. We wanna be with the right people, the people who love us and can offer us compassion in return. But I just wanna say that for anybody out there, especially I don't know. I had that belief in my twenties, so anybody younger.
Amanda Durocher [00:32:03]:
But we do need one another, and that's okay.
Kelby Knutt [00:32:06]:
Yeah. I mean, I I told Kai that I need you. I was very deeply emotional. I've never been brought to my knees like that in a conscious way. Right? We talked a little bit before recording about how we can be brought to our knees in a way that feels so painful. Even if we experience pain in our childhood, you know, now that we're adults, it feels just as painful, if not more, to be brought to those places. And that's where I was, and I chose to repair because, again, I looked him dead in the eyes and was like, I need you right now. I cannot let go of this relationship, which, again, like, it was hard for me to say that.
Kelby Knutt [00:32:46]:
Yeah. It was really hard for me to say that, but it needed to be said because of how important that man is to me and the relationship and, gosh, the how far the relationship has brought me in my personal life even. I I don't think I could have reached the places that I have without it.
Amanda Durocher [00:33:03]:
I think it's beautiful you don't take your relationship for granted. Yeah. Yeah.
Kelby Knutt [00:33:08]:
Yeah. Arguments will will do that, at least when you're in the repair phase. And by the way, repair looks different for different people and for different situations. I mean, if it were up to me, I would give the cold shoulder for two days, and we wouldn't speak because that's how I learned to deal. But Kai has a much different way. He's the type that's like, no. We're talking about this right now. I've even had to tell him, like, I need ten minutes, and then we can talk.
Kelby Knutt [00:33:35]:
But he has made it so that I feel more safe that way too. It's like I don't have to be alone, and there's not the threat of being left. You wanna work this out with me.
Amanda Durocher [00:33:46]:
Yeah. That's really true. Yeah. I think I learned the same thing growing up. Well, when I was growing up, I just learned we just never talked about anything. So I always wanted to talk about things, but we never did. And I eventually stopped trying to talk about things with anybody, and I would deal with my feelings alone, which was just bottling them up. And working things out with Evan, the repair work, has been so healing to know that, like you said, you just don't have to go through it all alone.
Amanda Durocher [00:34:10]:
And I think that's where sometimes that hyper independence can come from too is that you, as a defense mechanism, do learn to do everything on your own, and you do learn how to function and live and process your feelings. But like I said, we just shouldn't have to. It's okay to do it with each other. Actually, things move quicker. You know, quicker as in, like you said, instead of giving somebody the cold shoulder for two days, you're resolving it same day. You know? Things just move. They flow better when we're able to be seen.
Kelby Knutt [00:34:37]:
Yeah. I wanna just share that. I was seen in so many ways in this argument in ways that I never wanted to be seen. The ugliest parts of myself came forward. The part of myself that I call the feral cat. She came forward, and she was ready to rumble. Okay? And he saw me in, like I said, the ugliest version of myself, the part of myself that probably has the most shame attached to it. And he looked at me and said, alright.
Kelby Knutt [00:35:07]:
That's cool. I'm cool with it. In fact, when we repaired, I thought that I would have to come to terms with that feral cat and apologize and profusely, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. He didn't even care about that part. That had nothing to do with why he was upset. He was upset about me not wanting to communicate and wanting to run away. Right? He wasn't afraid about the feral cat.
Kelby Knutt [00:35:29]:
He's like, I'll take her any day. She's actually, like, making contact with me. It's the girl behind the closed door that I can't even connect to her. That's why I'm upset.
Amanda Durocher [00:35:38]:
I love how you mentioned that what you thought he cared about isn't actually what he cared about. I think that is so common in arguments that for us, the most shameful piece is what we think they care about. And oftentimes, it's something else that the other person cares about.
Kelby Knutt [00:35:55]:
Yeah. In my case, Kai, he's a marine, a former marine. I don't really know how you say that. He was in the marines. So, anyway, for him, the feral cat is like nothing. It's like a walk in the park. Right? He's like, yeah. Bring it on.
Kelby Knutt [00:36:07]:
But, again, the girl behind the closed door, he can't begin to connect with somebody who's not even willing to connect. Right? So, anyway, once we had all those cards on the table, then we're able to make something of it. And, oh, that was very vulnerable in the moment. But I kinda wanna talk about some different stages of repair, not that they have to happen in any sort of order, but some things that you might expect to come up or that you might encourage within yourself, like owning your part of what happened, whether it was, you know, 90% of what happened, 10%, fifty fifty, owning your part, and, again, going into that adult part of yourself in order to do so.
Amanda Durocher [00:36:49]:
Yeah. I think that that's the self awareness piece, you know, with these arguments is beginning to become if you're not already if you're listening to this podcast, I'm sure you understand self awareness. But it's beginning to become aware of what's happening in the moment and what is, like you said, your piece of it.
Kelby Knutt [00:37:09]:
I I think that leads the way towards more compassion
Amanda Durocher [00:37:12]:
Mhmm.
Kelby Knutt [00:37:12]:
Because you're willing to acknowledge what you did. Right? And you're not pointing the finger the whole time, so that softens the energy a little bit. And from that place, you can begin to have an exchange of, you know, even what kind of feelings came up for you as a result of your own shit. Right? And then you can start to have a discussion and make even, like, requests from your partner of, hey. Can we try to do this next time, or would you be willing to say it this way next time?
Amanda Durocher [00:37:44]:
Yeah. For me, that awareness piece is switching my brain from judgmental to curious. And so so often, I'm judging Evan, and I'm also judging myself. So oftentimes when I judge Evan, then I start judging myself for judging Evan. Because now that I have so much self awareness, sometimes my judgments are like, I'm mad at you, and then it's like, you should know better than to be mad at him. And it's like this back and forth judgment space, and I have to switch it to being curious. Oh, you're mad at him rather than I'm mad at him. It's like, oh, I'm mad right now.
Amanda Durocher [00:38:14]:
Why? You know? And starting to ask myself those questions and bring in that third person perspective. I call it, like, the witness perspective, the part of me that's able to kinda take a step back and be, like, curious, like I said, like, How did we get here? And then from there, she can help me. I view it as a she. She can help me ask those questions that you were saying, like, figure out what I need moving forward. And so often, it's like you said, can you just word this differently next time? Or with me with Evan for a long time, it was me saying, can you ask me questions rather than make assumptions? And it's me with him too rather than me just assuming things. When I'm about to make an assumption, can I ask him? Because so often, our fights just come from misunderstandings because we're two different people with two very different views of the world. And so we make assumptions about one another, and they're just not true at all. They're not based in reality.
Kelby Knutt [00:39:05]:
Yeah. I like that you mentioned the witness, and I wonder I think for every person, the witness might look different, but it's worth exploring in yourself what does your witness look like, feel like, who is she or he or it. You know? For me, it might be like a divine mother energy is what I work with, and she's very loving. Right? So she helps me to pull away and look with compassion at what's going on and not just compassion for him, but compassion for me and the situation that we're in. Right? If we're moving, yeah, let's bring some compassion in. That's stressful. Yeah. Right? And so you can be really helpful in any in in beyond arguments, just any situation to pull away and have that kind of, yeah, that third person zoomed out perspective and and look at what's going on.
Kelby Knutt [00:39:54]:
Okay. I'm going into my inner child response because of this pattern, and he's doing this. And it's not that we wanna sit there and analyze the whole thing, but we wanna bring in compassion, you know, and not get lost in the story and that shaming.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:10]:
And the compassion, it comes in for me, yeah, with the curiosity because oftentimes, that curious nature for me starts going, what's the root here? What's really going on here? And so often, it's deeper. As we've talked about the inner child work or it's something else that happened that day. As we mentioned, that fights can happen in stressful situations. When Evan and I can start fighting, I can be like, oh, what's really going on here? And then I'm like, oh, yeah. That thing happened earlier. And I tried to just run over it, and I'm still upset about it. And it has nothing to do with the current situation, but I think so many of us can start fights with our loved ones because they're easier to fight with than sometimes other people. And it's just a safer place to let out that anger and aggression.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:50]:
It doesn't mean that's what we wanna do, but sometimes I think we can just be nicer to strangers than we are to our loved ones, which we don't want to be the case long term, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Kelby Knutt [00:41:02]:
Right. It's just the nature of the relationship. Absolutely. And I wanna go back to, like, identifying, oh, where might this be coming from? Sometimes we don't know, and that's okay. But maybe in those moments, we can drop into, like, what am I feeling now? You know, for example, I was on a hike yesterday. It was pretty hot. I was getting really irritated. And I know that I was hiking and I was sweaty and whatever, but I was also feeling frustrated and almost, like, kind of disappointed in myself because it was hard and I thought I was more fit than that.
Kelby Knutt [00:41:33]:
Right? But can we drop into what is the feeling right now? Okay. Anger, whatever, sadness, detachment, and then even to kind of explore the sensation that you talked about, and that can help to explore a little bit. Because sometimes it feels just like we don't know. It's kinda like foggy or whatever.
Amanda Durocher [00:41:51]:
I'm glad you brought that up too because I think with a lot of people who are healing or starting to bring self awareness, they can get caught in the headspace. The questions, like, the back and forth. Like, I talked to so many people who are like, no. I get where this started. I get where this comes from. But it's that feeling part that's gonna be the part that I believe sets you free is you bring the awareness, and then you also allow that feeling up as you mentioned, the uncomfortability of what that feeling is in your body. And it will probably help you have more information about the situation, or it's just a feeling that we need to find a way to process and to move. But that feeling part is so often what holds us back from that moving forward.
Kelby Knutt [00:42:29]:
Yeah. For me, like, it can harden me to being receptive to what's going on. Like, yesterday on my hike, I felt very hard. Like, I just have to push through this and my heart, like, closes off because I'm in that place of just pushing through. Right? Versus being curious and exploring and and this is, again, a process. It's like an unfolding when we go through any kind of introspection and healing. It doesn't happen overnight. So I do wanna mention, though, when we're making promises to each other Mhmm.
Kelby Knutt [00:43:01]:
And we're we're making requests. We talked about this earlier before the episode of, like, being open to your partner having requests Mhmm. And, like, the two way exchange of that.
Amanda Durocher [00:43:11]:
Yeah. I think that that can be so humbling. I find, especially for women, I I think it's humbling for everybody. But I know in my experience and with people I've worked with and spoken with, leaving space for a man to have all his feelings too is, as I said, humbling. I didn't grow up in a household where the men really have their feelings. So learning to allow Evan to have his feelings and allowing him to say what bothered him was so triggering for me at the beginning. I took everything Evan used to say as a criticism where the truth is if I'm gonna tell him what I need, he needs to be able to tell me what he needs. And the truth is I'm not perfect.
Amanda Durocher [00:43:49]:
I don't know what I always do to upset him, especially at the beginning of our relationship. I remember when he told me his love language was words of affirmation, and I was like, oh my god. I am so critical. It was just, like, mind blowing, but I needed to hear that. It was super hard for me to hear because I was a critical person for a long time. But it's so important to allow it to be a two way street and to listen to your partner because that's how you grow together, and that's how you create vulnerability and intimacy.
Kelby Knutt [00:44:16]:
Yeah. And you'd be surprised. I I heard oh god. Allison Armstrong, I think, is her name. She teaches about, I think, men and women, their dynamics, but she'll talk about men a lot. And I love how she said, you'd be surprised if you allow a man to speak. You know, he will have something to say. And even if you give him, like, seven seconds, I think she says, like, if he pauses and you wait seven seconds, I don't know why it's seven.
Kelby Knutt [00:44:41]:
I think there's probably something to it, that he'll have more to say. So, basically, like, women, we love to talk. So are you cutting him off, or are you giving him that space to really express? Because I think we're also conditioned not to, like, believe that men have deeper feelings even though that maybe in 2025, it's like, well, yeah, we all acknowledge that. But do you really, like, in your bones, acknowledge that men are sensitive and have deep feelings and needs too?
Amanda Durocher [00:45:10]:
Yeah. Just as deeply as we do. You know? Because every human does. You know? And I think that's important to acknowledge that every human has a very emotional experience, and we're not always taught that.
Kelby Knutt [00:45:23]:
No. No. We're not. Very humbling to learn that about your partner. It's really beautiful too because it's like, oh, he has so much more to him than I thought or whatever. Right? Like, assuming that you have our this experience that Amanda and I do. Yeah. It's like, oh, he's just as sensitive as I am.
Kelby Knutt [00:45:39]:
And what is sensitive? It's just sensing through the body and emotion. Right? And, of course, we all do that. It's not a uniquely feminine or, you know, a a woman thing.
Amanda Durocher [00:45:50]:
And I think it's interesting with that seven second thing. I hadn't heard it before, but I think when people are getting a chance to communicate about their emotions at the beginning, it can take time. It's like a new language. And I think women are more comfortable talking about their emotions in some ways. Right? But I'm just like, you know, you have to give somebody a moment to get their thoughts together and to know it's safe for them to continue to communicate that. Because as you said, I think so often, men can probably be cut off about their emotions. I know with Evan back when I was, like, 22 and he'd try to communicate something, I would cut him off, and I'd just be like, but what about me? What about this? I would go straight to the blame game. Like, when he went to try to tell me something, I go straight to blaming, well, this is what
Kelby Knutt [00:46:30]:
you did
Amanda Durocher [00:46:31]:
rather than allowing him to share it and then also telling him how I felt. Right? There's a way to communicate that there's two sides to the story. We don't have to blame one another to try and be seen in it. We can understand that our experience can be just as real as their experience. One doesn't negate the other.
Kelby Knutt [00:46:47]:
Yeah. And I think it's really special to be able to provide that place for a man to express because they're not really given that they're not encouraged to do that out in the world. So if they can come home and, like, take a load off and know that they can just be themself in their emotions, like, what a relief and how safe that can feel for them. I can only imagine because I'm a woman, but I would imagine it feels quite safe to be received by a woman in that way.
Amanda Durocher [00:47:16]:
Yeah. Because I think it goes back to we feel safe, and at least I know I feel safest when I can be all of me, like, every part of me. And we are emotional beings, so we have to allow our partners to also have that part of them. And I think, inherently, that does create safety because we're allowing them to be a part of them that they often have to mask from the world.
Kelby Knutt [00:47:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. All of this to say too that going through an argument, totally normal totally normal no matter how big or small. And there are tools. You're not alone. You're not helpless. Although it can feel that way, there are tools and and techniques to navigate, and it happens in stages. It's not, again, overnight, but we can slowly work towards having this, feeling of safety and warmth and connection and knowing that no matter what happens, we'll come back to each other.
Kelby Knutt [00:48:13]:
Because sometimes it can feel like a fight is the end. Right? Especially in the early times of a relationship. But, yeah, that feeling of no matter what, we're gonna come back together, and we're gonna continue to, you know, be a team.
Amanda Durocher [00:48:25]:
Yeah. Team. I like that. I like that phrase for it because that's what you are your team, and I imagine any team has, like, disagreements. You know? I'm just, like, picturing sports teams. I bet there's a lot of strong personalities on a team, but you gotta come together and find the best solution for the team, and it's same in a relationship.
Kelby Knutt [00:48:42]:
Yeah. Like, you're working towards a shared goal.
Amanda Durocher [00:48:44]:
Yeah.
Kelby Knutt [00:48:45]:
I I also wanna just mention that if you're working towards a shared goal, ideally, you're communicating. And anytime you're communicating, you're probably gonna miscommunicate or misunderstand. Right? If you're trying to understand, you're gonna misunderstand at times. Right? So it's actually a good indicator if you're having arguments here and there. We're not condoning, like, fighting every day or, you know, where it bleeds into abuse. Definitely not speaking to that. But arguments and misunderstandings, totally normal.
Amanda Durocher [00:49:15]:
Totally normal. Before we wrap up, is there one piece of advice you would offer somebody who is new to arguments or who is a little overwhelmed with maybe arguments in their own relationship right now or looking to navigate arguments in any way?
Kelby Knutt [00:49:30]:
I think it's good to always start out with yourself, like, doing some work with yourself and maybe even communicating to your partner. Hey. I wanna do better, and I want us to do better. And, therefore, I'm gonna be, you know, doing some exploration internally. And and, yeah, working with that inner child, I think that's always a good place to start. And then I always wanna name I think I've said it, like, four or five times already that all of these things when we're healing and we're working inside, they take time. And it's like a flower slowly unfolding, a beautiful flower. Right? We don't force it open.
Kelby Knutt [00:50:09]:
We just watch it unfold.
Amanda Durocher [00:50:12]:
Yeah. I agree with all that. And I'll just also add in be kind to yourself and be kind to your partner, but especially be kind to you. You know? I think that when we're arguing, we can get so triggered within, and the first step is to learn to really be kind to ourselves and to love ourselves through that moment. Because I know there were fights I had with Evan where I would scream at the top of my lungs, and he wouldn't scream back, and he could even respond in a way that was like, are you done? And it because I was so self hating, it didn't matter how he responded. It didn't matter if he was able to meet me in a different way and he didn't blame me or he was able to even meet me with love and compassion. It wasn't until I could offer myself some love and compassion that then I was able to receive his love and compassion for me.
Kelby Knutt [00:50:57]:
Mhmm. Yep. Like, the words of RuPaul, if you don't love yourself, how are you gonna love anybody else? I may have gotten that wrong, but it's something along those lines. And it always sounded corny to me, but it is so true. If I love me, then I know how to love you, and I know how to love that guy over there, and then I know how to love humanity and the planet and so on.
Amanda Durocher [00:51:19]:
A %. I think that's a great way to wrap this up.
Kelby Knutt [00:51:22]:
Yep. Agreed.
Amanda Durocher [00:51:23]:
Thank you so much for joining us for this episode. We love hearing from everyone who listens. So if you want to reach out with any comments or questions, we're always curious how people hear and receive these episodes. So we love to have a dialogue about them. You can either email us at loveunderthescope@gmail.com, or you can message us on Instagram. And Kelby offers one on one sessions if anybody listens to this and is like, I need some help. Kelby Kelby's your girl.
Kelby Knutt [00:51:57]:
Yeah. If you're wanting to explore the inner child piece that we talked about, that's what I do on a daily basis with my clients. And I've seen a lot of really cool transformation happen as a result of that. You can find me and message me at Kelby Knutte on Instagram.
Amanda Durocher [00:52:14]:
And we'll have all that information in the show notes, which you can check the description for links to all the ways to contact us. So thank you so much for joining us for another episode and for looking at love under the scope with us.
Kelby Knutt [00:52:31]:
Love Under the Scope is a new view advice production. Theme music by Tyler Canute. The podcast is produced by Amanda Deroscher. Love Under the Scope.