7: Sex After the Honeymoon Phase: The Ups & Downs of Sex in Long-Term Relationships
In this episode, Amanda & Kelby dive into what sex really looks like after the honeymoon phase in long-term relationships. Together, they open up about the pressures, expectations, and unspoken myths around sex, sharing personal stories of healing, communication, and growth. Both Amanda & Kelby found that sex in long-term relationships ebbs and flows, and has ups and downs, and this is something they wish more people spoke about.
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From unlearning damaging cultural narratives and addressing sexual trauma, to building safety and embracing playfulness with your partner, Amanda and Kelby get real about the ups and downs of intimacy over time. Tune in for honest, relatable insights on everything from navigating shame and initiating sex to embracing pleasure at every stage. Whether you’re struggling with mismatched desire, working through old wounds, or just curious about how to keep sex meaningful and fun beyond the early days, this episode is here to support you.
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This podcast was transcribed by an AI tool called Castmagic. Please forgive any typos or errors.
Kelby Knutt [00:00:10]:
Love under the scope.
Amanda Durocher [00:00:15]:
Welcome to Love Under the Scope. I'm Amanda Durocher.
Kelby Knutt [00:00:18]:
And I'm Kelby Knuttt. And this is a podcast where we get into the realities, the ups, the downs, and all of the beautiful facets of being in a long term committed relationship with another human being.
Amanda Durocher [00:00:35]:
And this week, we wanted to dive into the topic of sex, but, specifically, what sex is like after the honeymoon phase.
Kelby Knutt [00:00:44]:
I think there's a lot of expectations around sex and a lot of fear too, and I think it can put us into kind of an interesting place when we finally do enter into a committed relationship. And we have all these notions of, like, what it's supposed to be and how it's supposed to feel, and it can be kind of daunting then to take on, like, how we go about our sex life.
Amanda Durocher [00:01:10]:
I do think there's a lot of expectations around sex and what it's gonna be like and what it's forever supposed to be like. And I know that was something that, specifically in my twenties, I'd really get in my head about.
Kelby Knutt [00:01:22]:
Yeah. That age when you're coming out of your teen years and you're supposed to be, like, an adult who knows exactly how to have sex in the best way possible with, like, anybody who happens to be your partner. Right? Like, you can read their mind and they can read yours, and you're just having mind blowing sex all the time.
Amanda Durocher [00:01:42]:
Did you watch Sex and the City? I did not. Okay. I was a Sex and the City girl from, like, middle school. So, like, that show really it just it put things in my head around the idea of sex and how, like, every time you're gonna have this crazy sexual experience, and you're gonna have a story to write and tell about it. And, yeah, it just really kinda messed with my head now that I look back on it.
Kelby Knutt [00:02:02]:
Yeah. That's a that's a big one. Like, media, TV shows, movies, they give us this kind of skewed idea or maybe just fantastical, unreal idea of what sex is gonna be. And, usually, it's a a lot of the time, it's like a one night stand that they're showing us. Right? And these people just happen to know exactly what to do with each other's bodies, and it can be kind of silly.
Amanda Durocher [00:02:27]:
Yeah. I know. I'm laughing about it now because when you see it in the movies, unless it's a comedy, there's no, like, awkward moment when it comes to sex. And I don't know. I'm in a long term relationship, and there can still sometimes, I don't know, be an awkward moment.
Kelby Knutt [00:02:40]:
Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, again, like, you're not mind readers. You're not like, oh, this guy likes exactly this at this exact moment. That's what it seems to be in media and TV shows and movies. It's I always laugh at, like, they cut from people are on a first date or they meet at a bar to, like, they're back at the apartment. They open the door.
Kelby Knutt [00:03:01]:
They're just ripping each other's clothes off. So they're being thrown around, like, onto the kitchen counter and just absolutely ravaging each other. And it's like, maybe that happens every once in a while, but that's just so unrealistic to get into people's heads that this is what good sex looks like. This exactly.
Amanda Durocher [00:03:19]:
Totally. And I'm also thinking too I told you before this episode, I can't talk about sex without talking about being a rape survivor because my healing journeys were really intertwined with both. But I just kinda laugh about, like, if I was ever to have a one night stand, which I've actually never had one. But if I was, and I went back to somebody's house and they started throwing me around, like, trauma responses left and right, it would be like, trauma response. Like, so I would start crying. Yes. That can still happen for me in sex. I can cry, but I would start crying and, like, run away.
Amanda Durocher [00:03:44]:
But they make it seem like that's what sexy sex is. So I used to judge myself for that truthfully because I never wanted to be thrown around. And it's okay if you do. I just, like, personally never did, and I would judge myself for that.
Kelby Knutt [00:03:55]:
Well, I think what we're getting at is this expectation that, like, that's just what's gonna happen no matter what. Like, no communication Yeah. Right, is there of, like, do you like this? Is it okay if I Yeah. Rip your shirt off? Is it okay if I freaking bite you or whatever the hell is going on? Right? And, certainly, that can be what some people want. But, yeah, we're talk like, first date or first sexual encounter with somebody, I just don't know if it's gonna look like that. That. I mean, I can tell you, certainly, when I lost my virginity, like, it looked nothing like that. I think that could be the case for most people.
Amanda Durocher [00:04:29]:
Nothing like that. Yeah. Absolutely. Nothing like that.
Kelby Knutt [00:04:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. So that kind of brings us into the topic of we're gonna move into the idea of sex after the honeymoon phase, but let's just briefly touch on sex before you even meet your long term partner. And I know for me, we kind of have different stories, Amanda and I, but for me, I was a person who would have these casual sexual encounters. I had some longer term boyfriends, but certainly not as long as my relationship now. And so I can speak to the fact that I actually would use sex as a tool. I almost feel like I was in my head, I was, like, bartering with these men. Like, here, I will give you sex.
Kelby Knutt [00:05:11]:
And in return, you will give me love or you will fill this void inside of me. And spoiler alert, that never happened.
Amanda Durocher [00:05:21]:
Yeah. I told you before this episode that when I first met Evan, there was one night I wanted to have sex after a night out drinking, and he was like, I'm not gonna have sex with you. You're drunk. It was mind blowing for me because my experience with sex is different where I'm a rape survivor. And so my first experience with sexual activity, I don't even wanna call it sex, was when I was 15 and I was raped. So that has very much played into my relationship with sex and having to heal. So when I met Evan, he was the first man who respected me in my body, and it was, like, mind blowing. And I was also very confused.
Amanda Durocher [00:05:54]:
I was like, is that right? Because, you know, you're also in college and you're like, everybody has strong sex. But I look back as actually really sweet that I met this man when I needed to meet this man, to be honest, who, yeah, he just respected me.
Kelby Knutt [00:06:06]:
Yeah. And, ideally, your long term partner does. Right? Anybody who's listening, that's kind of the relationships that we speak to are relationships that have respect and mutual love and understanding and care. Right? So I think with that assumption, before we meet that person, and I'm speaking to my own story. Right? I was kind of fumbling in the dark. I had some fun experiences. I don't wanna make it sound like it was all bad. I had some really fun experiences sexually, and I don't have a lot of regrets.
Kelby Knutt [00:06:37]:
I really don't. Maybe, like, one or two. But mostly, I just know that I was having sex for reasons that I wasn't aware of at the time, but I know that I was trying to get something. I was kind of like, will you be the one to stay? Mhmm. Will you be the one to love me? How about you? What if I do everything that you might want? Will that make you stay or whatever? So when I finally met Kai, then it was like I didn't have to do that anymore. We enjoyed having sex, but there was a different vibe of, like, I'm not using this as a tool anymore. It's no longer me desperately trying to get somebody to stay because he's just told me he's gonna stay.
Amanda Durocher [00:07:17]:
Yeah. It's making me think about how I think sex has power. And I think when we use it as a tool like that, we're, like, aware that it's powerful even if we're unconscious of it, but it's not the real power we can gain from having a healthy sex life or having sex with somebody who's safe, if that makes sense.
Kelby Knutt [00:07:36]:
You're right. There is, like, an unspoken power about that. And that's why I did have fun with it because there were times where I saw my own power, and I saw that I could use it for something, but it I wasn't getting love. Yeah. And I wasn't getting respect. You know? So when Kai came around and I had that, there was this paradigm shift of, like, oh, I'm not trying to gain something from this anymore.
Amanda Durocher [00:08:02]:
For you, is that when you realized it was more about connection?
Kelby Knutt [00:08:06]:
Connection and safety. And it's not that we said that out loud. Oh, this is about safety now. But there was yeah. It was an unspoken understanding of, we both want to want this. Like, we don't want to force this on each other, which even not being a survivor of rape, there are still times where I felt like I didn't have a choice. And it's different. You know? It's not physically forced on you, but there were certainly times where I was like, I have to do this because I have to receive something or I don't wanna disappoint this person.
Kelby Knutt [00:08:38]:
Like, they really want it. Right? Which, god, I think that's so many women. We feel that way. I have to do this because it could be any reason. Right?
Amanda Durocher [00:08:46]:
I totally agree with that. That's something I had to work through with Evan too. You know? At the beginning of our relationship, there were plenty of times that we just have sex and I didn't want to. And so one of the greatest gifts I learned or I gained throughout my sex life with Evan is the ability to say no. And, honestly, Evan helped me with that. Evan was like, I don't want to do it. You're obviously not in the mood, and that was new for me too. I was like, what? You want me to want to do it too? Evan's the one where I learned that sex was for two people's pleasure and not just one person's pleasure, which makes me really sad for my younger teenage self that she didn't even understand that sex could be about her as well.
Kelby Knutt [00:09:23]:
Yes. Oh, gosh. And I don't think we even plan to really talk about this today, but I think this is a really important subject. When you meet somebody where you're not using sex as, like, a bartering tool is what I'll call it, and then you have the option to say no. And then I'm unlearning that still where it's not, you know, oh, I have to do this because it makes Kai happy. And I've also read online that in order to keep a couple connected, you have to have sex once every two weeks. That's the ideal number. Right? So, oh, it's been two weeks.
Kelby Knutt [00:09:54]:
Let's go do it. And then it's this thing that's becomes very utilitarian going through the motions. And one of the best things I've read actually in I think it's in Come As You Are, which is by Emily Nagoski. She She talks about taking a break from sex. If you feel that way with your partner, literally taking, you know, two months off from sex.
Amanda Durocher [00:10:14]:
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Honestly, I found that throughout my own journey was specifically when I was really in the depths of healing from sexual trauma, and I was reliving it daily and, like, seeing horrible things that happened to me. That was really when I had to learn to say no, and I had to learn to listen to my body and what it wanted. And it was really healing because there were all these messages mixed in my head that needed to be unlearned. And now that they are unlearned, it's so much easier and flowy when I have sex.
Amanda Durocher [00:10:41]:
Like, it just flows, and I don't know if it would ever be months again. Maybe it would, though. You also just learn that, like, your body ebbs and flows, our needs ebb and flow, life ebbs and flows, and it doesn't mean your relationship's doomed. Like you were saying, if you're not doing it every week or every other week, you know, people go through hardship. People go through times where they have different needs. And sometimes specifically too for me when I was really tending to that inner child when I had never tended to her before, she didn't, like, wanna be sexually active. She just wanted to feel safe in her relationship and have a man hold her and cuddle with her and know that she didn't have to be touched. And, eventually, we wanna let all these parts of us flow together, like the inner child, the inner teenager, the adult self, the wise self.
Amanda Durocher [00:11:22]:
They learn to all ebb and flow at the same time. But I find when we're healing, sometimes we have to give one part of us time and attention and allow them to teach us something, and then we can take that into the next steps of our relationship. But since I was exposed to sex, I feel like at a young age I mean, I'm sure 14, fifteen's normal, but it was also very violent. I feel like I had to go on this journey of learning sex from every age. Like, learning what it was and not having to do it, but I had to go through this, like, healing each stage
Kelby Knutt [00:11:51]:
of it. Absolutely. When we're talking about healing, there is a element of breaking it down into stages and taking it slow and not forcing ourselves to do anything. And what I can say for me, I think before I met Kai, I was kind of just forcing myself to go to this place of, like, even what I saw in porn, like, acting that out, which, ugh, I hate saying that out loud, but it's just true. When we say media teaches us to have sex, part of that is born. And so I would act out what I saw there and be like, oh, maybe this will please him. Maybe this will make me more lovable. And so then when it comes to the healing, we meet that person where we settle down.
Kelby Knutt [00:12:34]:
Then what I had to relearn, and this took some time. I'm still learning this. It's been six years now that we've been together. So what I had to unlearn was, like, I don't have to perform anymore.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:45]:
Mhmm.
Kelby Knutt [00:12:45]:
I'm not doing this to make myself more lovable. Like, I'm not going fishing anymore with this way of having sex. And so I literally had to relearn how to have sex, which was so bizarre. There was a point where I actually thought maybe this isn't the right person for me, which I hate saying that out loud too, but I'm just being open because it literally was tripping me up that I wasn't having sex anymore to catch somebody. Like, I was able to have sex in a way that was just because I wanted to. And so, yeah, it was a lot of unwinding of all of this I mean, it's literally stuff that we store in our body. It's not just in your mind. It's the way your body knows how to have sex.
Kelby Knutt [00:13:27]:
Like, I had to unlearn that in order to be with my partner.
Amanda Durocher [00:13:32]:
I love that you mentioned that because that really resonated. Specifically, you were relearning that you got to have sex because you wanted to have sex, and that was it. Because that was a big part of my unlearning journey was I even felt guilt for wanting to have sex because it had been such a violent act in my life. And I think this is also cultural and societal, and I grew up a little bit Catholic. I say a little bit Catholic because we went to mass, like, Christmas. And then my mom actually ripped us out of the Catholic church during the whole priest for pedophiles thing. So a little bit Catholic. But some of those beliefs were instilled, and I'd had to unlearn that it's not dirty to wanna have sex.
Amanda Durocher [00:14:09]:
There's nothing wrong with me. It's not shameful. Evan and I never got married, so that's another thing the church wouldn't love about me that I have on marital sex. Very committed, but it's not within a marriage. And so I had to learn that it was okay, that my body's needs were okay, that it was safe for my body to feel that way. There was nothing wrong with it. I used to label my sexual desires as wrong and also the way I had sex as wrong. I used to have this word right and wrong mixed in there, and I had to learn that sex isn't right or wrong.
Amanda Durocher [00:14:44]:
It's a body's need. It's natural. It's normal. Yeah. Normal even feels like the wrong word. I'm like, it's normal to wanna have sex. I don't know, but it's just it's part of our nature as humans.
Kelby Knutt [00:14:55]:
Yes. Absolutely. And it's the place where we get to express the unexpressed parts of ourself and play with maybe certain roles or desires that we don't get to speak to in our daily lives or practice speaking to those roles, like, you know, taking power or reclaiming our power is something that I'm kind of working with right now. You know, both in and out of the bedroom being sexually expressed helps us to express in our daily lives too. So that's the cool thing too about when you meet somebody and you're in it long term. So you get that safety element that comes in. Right? And that in itself for me has been a long journey because I don't wanna make it sound like, you know, Kai and I have just zoomed through this whole thing where we're just like, well, now we're just freaking liberated. We're, like, going crazy in the bedroom.
Kelby Knutt [00:15:48]:
We are absolutely still in this, and I it's just kind of one of those things that you're always working on, I think.
Amanda Durocher [00:15:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. I % agree.
Kelby Knutt [00:15:57]:
Yeah. So I don't wanna make it sound like, you know, eventually, you get to this stage, and then sex looks like this. Like, I think it's always a rapping and unwinding.
Amanda Durocher [00:16:06]:
Also, I just wanna throw in because I wanted to name that episode also, like, the ups and downs of sex in a long term relationship. So it's like you're saying, I think there are just always gonna be ups and downs just like in the relationship in general. There are different ups and downs. And you've said that sex can kinda reflect what's going on in your life. And so I just think your sex life is always gonna have ups and downs because the relationship always has ups and downs. That's part of being in a long term relationship.
Kelby Knutt [00:16:31]:
That's true. And being present with that, like, oh, I'm just not really in the mood recently. And maybe we have to readjust and do our own thing for a month or so, and then we'll come back to this. And when I stopped using sex as a bargaining tool, then there was safety, and now it becomes, well, okay. I don't have to have sex anymore because I'm not doing it for my existence, right, or to feel loved. Okay. Now why am I having sex then? And there was, like, a period where I was just like I honestly feel like my sexual energy was just really low. And thank God Kai is probably you know, sounds a lot like Evan where he was just like, whatever you need.
Kelby Knutt [00:17:11]:
You know? Like, whatever you need, don't ever feel like you have to
Amanda Durocher [00:17:15]:
Mhmm.
Kelby Knutt [00:17:15]:
Do anything. So that helped so much to just give me the space to breathe for a little bit. After years, you know, from the age of, I guess, 17 to 24, just performatory sex And fishing is the image that I'm getting. Like, I'm fishing with by having sex.
Amanda Durocher [00:17:34]:
It's interesting you mentioned that too because I've talked to a trauma professional who said that when women who have been sexually violated, It's just interesting because your experience isn't that. So it's might just be a woman experience, but this woman told me that when women who have been sexually violated find themselves in a safe relationship, so often their sex drive leaves because there's so much healing to be done. And rape survivors handle being raped very differently. Everybody does. But some people will be really sexually active afterwards. Some people aren't sexually active at all. But a lot of times, the people who become really sexually active afterwards when they enter that relationship become yeah, they don't wanna have sex for a while because this trauma starts to come up because it lives in the body, and sex is such a body experience. So it's just interesting to hear your example because I'm like, maybe this is just a universal female experience.
Amanda Durocher [00:18:22]:
It doesn't have to be trauma belated that there's almost like a trauma within women to do performative sex and for sex not to be about them. That when you find yourself in a safe relationship, it's the first time you get to kind of step back and be like, why am I doing this?
Kelby Knutt [00:18:39]:
Yeah. I'll speak to that. There was a point where I was kind of icked out by Kai kissing me in a certain way. And these are the times where I would question, like, are we good together? Is this right? And I ended up working with somebody on unwinding that, and it actually went back to a time that a guy kissed me in high school in a way that I did not like. And all we did was kiss. Like, nothing else happened, but even that, I felt trapped. Like, I felt like I couldn't say what I wanted. I think that's a universal woman thing Yes.
Kelby Knutt [00:19:11]:
Kind of we don't feel like we can speak up and say stop. I don't want this.
Amanda Durocher [00:19:16]:
I think that there's also something in women because I've talked to some rape survivors about this as well that it's almost scarier to say no because if they don't stop, what that means. So so many times, it's easier to just let it happen. I've just heard that experience many times before. Yeah. That it just can be easier not to speak up. And sometimes you can't speak up or sometimes you don't feel safe or especially when you're experimenting in high school or when you're a teenager. I mean, as young girls struggle to have our voice in general, it's a scary time, especially if you're going at it, I feel like, for the reason of, like, oh, I wanna be liked. I wanna be loved.
Amanda Durocher [00:19:51]:
The idea of setting a boundary is scary.
Kelby Knutt [00:19:55]:
And these are the things that you get the opportunity to work through them with your partner because they are safe. And I ended up I did tell Kai, like, oh, can you not kiss me in this particular way? Because it reminds me of this thing, and it's not you. It was such a relief to to go in and work on that and see, oh, it went back to this. It has nothing to do with Kai. None of the sexual stuff ever had anything to do with Kai. I love this guy. I know that we have this chemistry and we're meant to be together. There's no other way in my eyes, but these things would come up from my past that would almost make me question it.
Kelby Knutt [00:20:32]:
And so if you're listening, if you know that you love your partner and then there's something that they do sexually or in in some kind of intimacy related thing or action that they do that kind of irks you, I would explore that if you're ready and kind of see, like, what pictures come up for you. Do any memories come up for you related to that thing? Because most likely, it has nothing to do with your partner.
Amanda Durocher [00:20:57]:
Yeah. It's funny you bring that up because so I suffered from repressed memories with my sexual trauma, and it all came up for me when I became really curious about why I would fully dissociate during sex. Like, I would, like, blackout, and I was like, that's not normal. And Evan was like, I don't wanna have sex with you, basically, because I was just not there. I was unpresent. And I started to ask myself over and over again, why am I like this? Why is this happening? And I actually went to a Joe Dispenza retreat, and I set that as my intention. I want to have, like, passionate sex. And then two weeks later, my memories came back, and I've been on a wild journey of healing from sexual trauma ever since.
Amanda Durocher [00:21:36]:
But, again, I only am where I'm at my sexuality because I have looked at all those really, really hard things. And if there's anybody else out there who, you know, has experienced sexual trauma, it is daunting. It is hard. But you deserve to have a beautiful sex life with your partner. That was what I went back to over and over again as I was healing was I'm not gonna allow these people to take this from me. I'm 30 years old. I'm not gonna spend the rest of my life. And I was in my twenties when the memories came back, but it was like, I'm not gonna allow this instant to take this from me.
Amanda Durocher [00:22:08]:
But it breaks my heart that it does take that from people.
Kelby Knutt [00:22:12]:
Yeah. The fact that we get to work through those things in our relationship is really beautiful, but that doesn't mean it's not hard and that there's not work that maybe we do on our own in order to show up and not put the burden on our partner fully even though it's not a burden. I think there's a responsibility that we work through our stuff Mhmm. So that it doesn't feel so heavy on our partner even though they can help us work through it and and bring love and safety to that situation. And that's where it can be fun. Once we get to do the work, once we get through a lot of that healing on our own, then we can play with that idea of the roles. So for me, feeling like I gave away my body and my sexuality to these men before because I wanted them to stay and love me. Now I'm playing with, okay.
Kelby Knutt [00:23:03]:
Now it's my turn to have the power, and I'll do that in a playful way. I'm not gonna violate my partner. You know? I love him, and we'll talk we'll communicate. We're gonna do this. Right?
Amanda Durocher [00:23:12]:
Yeah.
Kelby Knutt [00:23:12]:
We're gonna try this. And so then I get to play the role of the person in power, you know, kind of like a dominating kind of situation. And if your partner is willing, like, that could be so healing. You know? In in somatic work and healing work in general. There can be something really satisfying about going back to a thing that hurt you and then resolving it, like, either inside of yourself or through sex. So, like, doing the opposite of what you did back then. So if you felt like you were giving yourself away and you had no power, then you're taking back your power. Like, how does that look to play that role out?
Amanda Durocher [00:23:51]:
Yeah. I'm thinking about in my relationship when I was healing too, there was times that I asked to be, like, the only one who was pleasured, and that was really vulnerable for me and took communication. But Evan was always open, but that was really healing for me that there didn't have to be this reciprocal thing because we communicated about it. But he was willing to just let me have a moment. That was healing for me too because, yeah, like you were saying, that it was just in my mind being like, okay. This gets to be about me. Woah. Like, that was mind blowing for me.
Kelby Knutt [00:24:21]:
And it's cool that you are able to tap into this is what I need, and this is what would be healing for me. And we kind of have what I would call, like, a sandbox, and I'm not making up that term that's out there. This idea that we get to play and experiment with this person because they are safe. Right? Once we get through the phase of doing the healing work, well, now we get to play, and now sex becomes fun. And we're talking, and we're creating something together.
Amanda Durocher [00:24:52]:
I actually wanna talk about the communication part too because I wanted to ask you. Did you think when you first were in a relationship that you had to communicate about sex? Because I honestly thought, like, we'd never have to talk about it. Like, I thought we would just, like, always know when each other would wanna do it Yeah. And what to do. Like, I didn't think there ever had to be speaking around it. I was just curious if you always knew you should talk about it. Because it's in I think it's the movies that make you think you never have to talk about it.
Kelby Knutt [00:25:20]:
Absolutely. I'm only laughing because I can relate because it's like, yeah. The movies make it seem like you both are turned on at the same time, and you just drop everything. And you're suddenly both of you are aroused at the exact same time, and it's so hot and whatever. And it's like
Amanda Durocher [00:25:34]:
And you finish at the same time?
Kelby Knutt [00:25:36]:
Yes. Actually, I read again in Come As You Are, great book for having sex in a long term relationship, actually, because she talks about these couples they did a study on that have been together for more than twenty years, and they have reported still having a great sex life. And when they asked them what were the factors that went into their great sex life, none of them were desire. Even though I do desire my partner, right, that's not one of the factors that contributes to our great sex life. Instead, the factors were communication, having good context. So meaning, you know, we wait for a good time. We don't have sex when we might feel stressed or if the kids are in the next room or even down to little details, like the window is open, like, you know, and people might be able to hear us. Like, their context is we make time for that.
Kelby Knutt [00:26:26]:
Right? And then probably connection was on there. I don't remember the other factors, but the main point is that desire was not one. I believe it's seven factors that are listed for the these couples.
Amanda Durocher [00:26:38]:
That's interesting. In my twenties, my mind would be blown.
Kelby Knutt [00:26:41]:
And then she even gets into the fact that the way our desire works between not only men and women, but then within men and women in their own categories, like, they can vary too. So some people are aroused just by touch, and other people take time. Like, it's a slow and steady buildup. Mhmm. A lot of men are the type where you go to them, you can just grab them, and they're ready to go. And, usually, women are more the type that we need a slow buildup of connection and communication. Right? But, again, it's not all men. It's not all women.
Kelby Knutt [00:27:16]:
So our desire works differently. Therefore, of course, it's not just, like, in the movies where it's like a big Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:27:23]:
That's how it works in my relationship. I definitely need more of the emotional buildup and the connection. And that's another thing since we're talking about sex after the honeymoon phase. I think maybe during the honeymoon phase, I didn't need as much as the emotional buildup because I felt so emotionally connected all the time because you just meet this person. And then I were in college. So, I mean, talk about having so much time on your hands to spend with each other. You know, we would just hang out all the time. You know, we were in class for, like, two hours a day.
Amanda Durocher [00:27:51]:
So I've found as our relationship has grown over the past decade, that emotional buildup is really important for me. But I judged myself when I didn't know that's what I needed and what was missing, like, when I was, like, 22. And it was like, why do I not feel connected to this man? Do I still wanna be with him? And it was like, yeah. You just need more of that emotional connection. Like, when he started working, it was just a change in our relationship that I didn't know was going to change our relationship so much, if that makes sense.
Kelby Knutt [00:28:20]:
Definitely. During the honeymoon phase, especially if we're talking like you guys got together in college, Kai and I got together when I was 24. You know, our hormones are a little bit different than you're a little more frisky as far as that goes. And I'm not saying, oh, in your twenties, it's up here, and then your hormones just take a nosedive. But I I think when you're younger, you're just you just don't need, like, the same
Amanda Durocher [00:28:45]:
I know. I also think you're not as stressed is kind of what I've come up with. I think the older you get, the more responsibilities you take on, which can feel stressful. Mhmm. And the more you have on your mind where I just remember being in my young twenties, and my mind definitely wasn't clear. It definitely was chaotic, but it wasn't so stressed all the time.
Kelby Knutt [00:29:07]:
Yes. Yeah. That's probably that's gotta be part of it. Because I know that there are some women who we actually like, our sexual energy gets kind of more explosive as we get older.
Amanda Durocher [00:29:18]:
Yeah. I heard that in your forties, for women, it can be the most they begin to feel their sexual energy coming
Kelby Knutt [00:29:23]:
more. Interesting.
Amanda Durocher [00:29:24]:
I wonder if forward to that decade.
Kelby Knutt [00:29:27]:
Yeah. Yeah. Same. I feel like I'm slowly kinda building there. I do feel like there's a confidence part because women, we can be so they question everything about our bodies. It It doesn't look good. It oh my god. It's not perfect.
Kelby Knutt [00:29:40]:
It's not this. And then by the time we get to 40 or 50, we're just like, it's my body. I wouldn't change a thing or whatever. Hopefully, we feel that way. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:29:48]:
I pray that's the case. I'm still working through some of
Kelby Knutt [00:29:50]:
that. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Same here. Definitely. So, yeah, we were talking about communication, though, and I I kinda wanna stay in that same thread and just talk about how the coolest part about having safety in our sex lives with this long term partner is that we can make requests like you did with Evan. You know? Yeah. Can I be the only one to receive pleasure today or whatever the case is? And so I've had fun with that because I've never really been one to make requests for anything
Amanda Durocher [00:30:21]:
at all. And with the communication piece too, that makes me think of on the same line that after the honeymoon phase is also when I had to learn that I could initiate as well. In the honeymoon phase, Evan initiated everything, and I learned that I had to initiate. And with that, just initiate sex in general, but like you're saying, once you start to initiate as a woman, you also can speak up your needs and different things you wanna experiment with or try. But for me, the first step of that was like, oh, you want me to initiate sexually? Never done that before.
Kelby Knutt [00:30:57]:
Which is kinda exciting. We get to decide how it starts, and we get to decide how we want it to look. And we can live out these, I guess, fantasies of I don't know. For me, it's a lot about power, like me taking back power.
Amanda Durocher [00:31:12]:
And for me, what I realized too is by initiating, it doesn't have to be me just lying around waiting for whenever he desires it that we would I was gonna say make love. Like, you know what I mean? I don't know. Yeah. But that it's like, oh, only when he desires it are we able to do that. So I was really nervous about initiating, but it was like, oh, it's a way to take my power back. I don't have to just sit here and wait for you. I get to express my needs, my desires, what I want as well. And he doesn't have to always say yes either, but it was actually a way to take my power back in it, and I didn't even realize that at first.
Kelby Knutt [00:31:44]:
I actually like that you say make love because I've been, like, playing with this idea that I mean, it is making love. You could even say, like, are we always making love then? Because I love you, and we're creating this relationship together. Because this is the beauty of, like, a long term partnership. You can so many different things. You can communicate, and there's no goal. Well, if you want that to be the thing that you guys work on or that you explore, there there could be no goal. Like, nobody has to orgasm. You could just Yeah.
Kelby Knutt [00:32:14]:
You could just play with it.
Amanda Durocher [00:32:15]:
And truth be told, there's times where neither Evan and I orgasm, especially when I was healing from trauma. There were times I'd give it a shot. I'd be, like, in my head, but I'd be like, okay. And I wasn't there. I wasn't ready to do it, and we would just stop. And that was a really beautiful thing for me too to know that I could try, and I didn't have to go all the way or finish or whatever. It creates safety that I can stop anytime I want to stop, and nobody's going to pressure me to finish or, you know, he would stop too. That was really healing for me too that he didn't just then make it about himself or something.
Amanda Durocher [00:32:51]:
You know? So that's, I think, a gift of long term relationships because I think specifically as women, as we were talking about when we're exploring our sexuality as young women, I don't know if we even know we have that option.
Kelby Knutt [00:33:03]:
Yeah. God. This is a really great point that I had to work through myself. Like, if either of us didn't orgasm, it was okay. I didn't have to make sure that he did. Right? It doesn't mean that he's gonna leave you. And I'm really it sounds drastic, but I really had to feel into that because I would be so disappointed sometimes and feel, like, so almost lost. Like, we did it wrong.
Kelby Knutt [00:33:29]:
We did it wrong.
Amanda Durocher [00:33:30]:
Yeah. It's like,
Kelby Knutt [00:33:31]:
no. He's and he's not gonna leave either just because it's not all about somebody orgasming. It's when you're with somebody long term or even if you're just having fun with somebody, I suppose. Although yeah. I just always felt like pressure. Like, the man has to orgasm, and that's how you know that he finds you worthy. It's like, ugh.
Amanda Durocher [00:33:53]:
Yeah. I mean, it makes me go back to a belief I had to unlearn from high school where there was this man, boy, because he was a high schooler, who would always say, like, oh my gosh. You're, like, giving me blue balls. So I thought men, like, literally would end up in so much pain if they didn't finish. And I was, like, torturing this poor man who I did not wanna do anything other than kiss. And he was always telling me that I was, like, putting him in pain, and I would have all this guilt. Because when I was a little high schooler, I was I just wanted to kiss boys. I didn't wanna do anything else.
Amanda Durocher [00:34:26]:
Anyways but he would make me feel so bad. So then when I met Evan, he was the one who taught me, like, that's not true. Yeah. Like, it's sexual discomfort, like, I can have. You know, like, when you're sexually frustrated, we all know that feeling. Yeah. But, yeah, I really, really believed, like, I was hurting him.
Kelby Knutt [00:34:42]:
I'm only laughing because it's also it's fucked up because that really is a thing that is taught to women, like, blue balls. Like, you're giving up blue balls. How dare you, you fucking, you know, lunch.
Amanda Durocher [00:34:52]:
Like You prude. Like, you know, people call me a slut and a whore because I was raped, or they'd call me a prude because all I wanna do is kiss. It was crazy. I couldn't win in high school.
Kelby Knutt [00:34:59]:
You're right. Exactly. You can't you can't win. You're either a slut or you're yeah. Exactly. You're a prude. Right. You can never be something in between.
Kelby Knutt [00:35:06]:
And that's unfortunate that we really were taught that. A lot of us, not all, but certainly a lot of women are taught, like, yeah, blue balls or it's all about the guy, and then we're just taught about sex in the lens of male sexuality, which can be so different than female sexuality. And our expectations of sex are so high for because of media or maybe not high, but they're so blown out of proportion because of media. And then also they're so, like, underwhelming because of the actual sex that you have in high school, which really is kind of underwhelming. Yeah. At least in my experience, totally underwhelming and not satisfying in the least bit, but I guess you have to have that exploratory phase.
Amanda Durocher [00:35:50]:
I think that all women have to have the exploratory phase, and I think some people have it I don't know. I think everybody has to explore sex a bit because the communication and language around it isn't necessarily helpful.
Kelby Knutt [00:36:05]:
Yeah. I think that's that's just what it comes down to. You know? We're fed a lot of assumptions and lies, straight up lies
Amanda Durocher [00:36:13]:
Yes.
Kelby Knutt [00:36:13]:
About sex. Like, straight up fucking lies that we end up living into. You know? I think of, again, porn, even just stories from other teens and people in their twenties and adults, even adults. Right? Yeah. And then fear too. Right? Like, you're gonna get pregnant. You're gonna get, like, an STD. And not that we shouldn't be aware of those things, but there's just so much chatter in our heads about sex that when we finally find this safe person, there is a lot of unlearning to do.
Amanda Durocher [00:36:47]:
There's so much I know I learned a lot about sex in high school and not good things, like things I had to unlearn. I really believe I grew up in, like, a breeding ground of rapists. I look back. It's just it scares me sometimes, the things that would happen at parties and that I witnessed and that were normalized. So I normalized very about the man behavior. And it just scares me that that can still happen today because it's just not the way sex is supposed to be. Sex is supposed to be making love. It's supposed to be beautiful.
Amanda Durocher [00:37:13]:
You know? And so I think when we're in these long term relationships, one of the gifts is that we can relearn. I think it's hard to relearn our beliefs around sex when we don't have that safety, that inherent safety. I think safety is a foundation to healing. So we have to create that inner safety and in a relationship that safety with somebody in order to begin healing and relearning and unlearning. Right? Unpacking the box of, like, what sex is in your head. That's what it was for me. It was like going through this box in my attic that was like, oh my gosh. This is a scary box.
Amanda Durocher [00:37:47]:
I don't like this box. But then every time I took something out, I gotta put something new and pretty in. That's how I'm gonna view it. You know? But
Kelby Knutt [00:37:53]:
Yeah. That's a really great analogy, actually. It really is like that, and we do it slowly. We don't just, like, dump the box out and, like, let's go.
Amanda Durocher [00:38:01]:
Yeah. You know?
Kelby Knutt [00:38:02]:
One by one and take your time. And by the way, this is all we've spoken about women's perspectives, but a lot of this can apply to men too because they are fed their own narratives of I mean, rape culture is one thing, which is totally totally a thing. And I'm not a man, so I can't really speak to a lot of it, but, like, watch porn. And women are all like this, and they like this, and they like to be thrown around. I think there's in our society right now, there's this big narrative of women enjoy be choked and to be slapped. And there's nothing wrong with that. There are women who maybe they genuinely like that, but I do think there is a very harmful narrative of, like, violence in sex.
Amanda Durocher [00:38:45]:
I think so too, and I think that's where the communication is important and it comes in because you and your partner are gonna find what works for you. And when you watch porn or you talk to even friends, like, I think about in my twenties, I think everybody talked up their sex life. I swear to god. Everybody was lying. Maybe one of these people had the best sex life ever, but I felt like I was in sex in the city. Especially when I lived in LA, everybody had the best sex with the richest man. And I was like, I'm over here terrified of sex. Anyway but I think men are also taught the performative sex and these different things.
Amanda Durocher [00:39:20]:
Because with those ladies, like, telling these stories that the man went for an hour and it was a beautiful and, you know, she finished, like, seven times. And I'm like, okay. But, I mean, men are hearing this too. Like, that they have to be on and perform. And even with the initiating, I think there might be a thing with men where that feels like a lot of pressure to always have to be the one to initiate, but society tells you you're supposed to and things like that that I think all the narratives around sex are unhealthy for both genders.
Kelby Knutt [00:39:47]:
Absolutely. I like that we're talking about this with men too because I've heard some men talk about, like, I don't want sex all the time. Like
Amanda Durocher [00:39:55]:
Mhmm.
Kelby Knutt [00:39:55]:
Why do we think that that men want sex all the time?
Amanda Durocher [00:39:59]:
Yeah. It's making me think of I remember the first time I initiated with Evan, and he said he wasn't in the mood. Oh my gosh. The amount of shame I felt. I felt awful. I felt rejected. I felt horrible. And it was really good, though, because, I mean, I've been kept being like, I'm not rejecting you.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:15]:
I'm just not in the mood. And it was so humbling because I was like, if I'm allowed to say no, he's allowed to say no. I just remember feeling so much shame and feeling rejected. And I think that's another thing we learn in long term relationships is that you don't always have to be in the mood, and the man doesn't and the woman doesn't. Nobody does no matter who you are, and that's okay. It doesn't mean your relationship's over because I definitely went there in my head too. I was like, he'd not into me anymore. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:43]:
Like, it's done. Like, oh my gosh. Like, we just run its forests. I'm old. I'm ragged.
Kelby Knutt [00:40:47]:
I'm disgusting. I'm an ogre. Yeah. Like, the most extreme thing. And I'm glad that we're talking about this. Because it gets fed to men that they must be aroused all the time and ready to go, then in turn, it gets fed to women that, well, if a man wants to have sex all the time and he's saying to you in particular, you, ugly, unworthy woman, that he's not in the mood, well, then there must be something wrong with me because men are supposed to always be in the mood. And it's this vicious circle. I think sex is such a big deal because we get these narratives that are so extreme.
Kelby Knutt [00:41:21]:
You know? Fear, obsession, lust, porn. It's like, what about just a regular old person that I've been with for ten years? You know? And I don't mean to say regular because I can certainly it's beautiful. It's fun. It's exploratory, but it's also not what we see in the movies or maybe hear stories of. Like, it's so much more nuanced than that.
Amanda Durocher [00:41:44]:
And I think when we bring in that fun and that play element, it gets to be its own thing each time. And it gets to be a surprise, which is fun and playful. And, of course, when we're in long term relationships, we know what each other likes. So it can get, like, a little sometimes it can just feel regular, but that's okay too. I actually find that's okay. I I actually still find those times fun. Like, that's the thing is that's still fun. Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:42:10]:
Just sometimes you wanna mix it up.
Kelby Knutt [00:42:11]:
Something that I learned is all pleasure is good pleasure. So
Amanda Durocher [00:42:14]:
Yeah. I love that.
Kelby Knutt [00:42:15]:
Yeah. So that took a lot of shame away for me for, like, times when we do have, like, regular sex, and it's like, well, it still feels good.
Amanda Durocher [00:42:23]:
I used to judge it. Like, oh my gosh. One of the things I wanna touch on was just that sex isn't mind blowing every time. And what I mean by that is it's just in the movies, I felt like it was like this your eyes roll back in your head. Like, oh my gosh. Like, you collapse at the end, and you're like, never had an orgasm like that before. And it's not like that every time. And sometimes I'm like, woah.
Amanda Durocher [00:42:42]:
My eyes did roll back, and other times I'm like, that was just really good. You know, there's nothing wrong with either of them. It's just, like, it's okay. You know what I mean? It's just, like, every time I sit down to record, some episodes, I'm like, fucking nailed it. Some episodes, I'm like, hope that lands for someone. Yeah. You know, it's anything in life, and I'm actually thinking that's how I feel about all creativity, and sex is a form of creativity. Oh, absolutely.
Amanda Durocher [00:43:03]:
Energy. So
Kelby Knutt [00:43:04]:
Oh, it's like the original form of creative energy. We use it to create life, literally, a baby. Not not that you have to have sex to create a baby, but you know what I'm saying.
Amanda Durocher [00:43:14]:
Yeah. But that's like it really is. Because, yeah, when I sit down to write, it's the exact same way. Some days, I just stare at a blank screen. Still glad I did it. And other days, I'm like, that's really good. And I get, like, a little arrogant even. You know? But it's just it's the same way, I think, with sex.
Amanda Durocher [00:43:29]:
Like, it's just different each time, and that's sort of the fun of it. You know? That's why I love anything creative is it surprises you. It gets to be its own thing. You get to explore. And when it's not going great, that's when you can self reflect. You know? I really think when things aren't going well or I have no sex drive, it has nothing to do with Evan and everything to do with me. That's what I found time and time again is that when I'm lacking a sex drive, it's like, okay, Amanda. What's really going on? And it's often I'm stressed or I have a trauma layer up that I've been avoiding.
Amanda Durocher [00:44:00]:
You know, for me, especially with healing sexual trauma, if I was trying to not look at a layer, it would impact every area of my life, including sex. Like, all of a sudden, it would be like, I don't wanna do this, and it'd be like, because I'm avoiding that thing. And so I think that's important to note too that a lot of times if you're just feeling lacking in that sexual chemistry, it can be a self thing. Like, self reflection can help you to move through that block.
Kelby Knutt [00:44:23]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I wanna share, like, what comes up for me is that it's, like, a full spectrum of experience, and we wouldn't want it to be this one explosive thing every time because then that becomes mundane. Right? So when we have the full spectrum, it's like all of the different experiences, right, including the disappointing ones, and that happens.
Amanda Durocher [00:44:44]:
Yeah. So do you have anything else you want to share before we wrap up this episode?
Kelby Knutt [00:44:52]:
Well, I hope that by listening to this, anybody who is feeling any kind of maybe shame or just not understanding or even wondering, like, is this person right for me? I hope that this has brought a little bit of clarity and maybe some areas that you can explore with your partner because that's what this is all about, you know, sex after the honeymoon phase. You have that safe place to explore and discover, like, what you truly desire in sex, and, therefore, you know, you get to take those things out of the bedroom into your daily life, which is the really cool part.
Amanda Durocher [00:45:28]:
And the last thing I just wanna add is that I think everybody deserves a beautiful sex life. I think I didn't know that for a really long time, and I often questioned if I'd ever have that or if I just end up an old dried up spinster. I used to just be like, Evan can just leave me because I'm broken over here. And especially if you're like me and you have a lot of sexual trauma, it can take time. All these things take time. It's like how you're saying, I don't want you to think this happened for me overnight. You know, Evan and I it was years of us figuring a lot of this stuff out. I wish there had been more open conversations, especially from sexual violence survivors about just it takes time.
Amanda Durocher [00:46:05]:
It's not gonna always be great overnight, but I think everybody just deserves a beautiful sex life. So if you feel frustrated, there are steps you can take. It just can take time.
Kelby Knutt [00:46:14]:
Yeah. Agreed. Cool.
Amanda Durocher [00:46:17]:
Well, thank you so much for joining us for this episode. If you wanna connect with us, you can check us out on Instagram at love under the scope, or you can email us at loveunderthescope@gmail.com. If you have follow-up questions on this episode or any episode or you have topics you wanna hear, please let us know. We would love to hear from you. And, Kelby, is this something you can help people with?
Kelby Knutt [00:46:38]:
Yes. Yeah. I work with individuals and couples to get them more connected, not only to each other, but to themselves. And that absolutely includes in their sex lives, but also just in their daily lives. So if you're looking for guidance around that, I am a certified relationship coach. You can reach out to me on Instagram. I recently opened a new account. It is @coachedbyKelby.
Kelby Knutt [00:47:06]:
That's my handle. And so you can DM me there or follow me. I'd be happy to have you on my page.
Amanda Durocher [00:47:14]:
Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Love Under the Scope.
Kelby Knutt [00:47:19]:
We'll see you next time. Love Under the Scope is a New View Advice production. You can learn more about our podcast at newviewadvice.com/loveunderthescope. Theme music is by Tyler Knuttt. Our podcast is produced by Amanda Durocher. Love under the scope.
