118: Healing from Rape: Realities of Surviving Sexual Violence with Kate Chisholm

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Jan 22

For this episode, I am joined by special guest, Kate Chisholm, founder of Survivors RISE, for a candid discussion about the realities of healing and surviving rape. We discuss our personal journeys of healing from rape and sexual violence, and Kate shares her story surviving rape, as well as her experience going through the criminal justice system and the impact of institutional betrayal. The episode also highlights the importance of community support, empathy, and various healing modalities we have used. We candidly laugh, cry, and talk about our lives as survivors. Our intention with this episode is to help other survivors feel less alone and more supported on their healing journeys, because we both personally have felt the feelings of isolation, and we don’t believe that should be the case.

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Learn More About Survivors RISE:

Survivors RISE Non-Profit in Arizona

Book Recommendations

Know My Name by Chanel Miller
Not that Bad: Dispatches from Rape Culture by Roxane Gay

TV Show Recommendation

I May Destroy You

Learn More About Kate Chisholm:

Dr. Kate Chisholm is the founder of Survivors RISE. Her vision for this nonprofit stemmed from her extensive work as a doctoral student at the University of Arizona where her dissertation examined survivors' experiences with the legal system, survivors' perceptions of restorative justice, and her personal favorite, innovative and alternative healing mechanisms for survivors. As a burgeoning leader in this field, she has presented and hosted workshops on her groundbreaking work at the National Sexual Assault Conference and American Public Health Association National Conference. Her work is published in The International Journal of Restorative Justice, Violence Against Women, and has been republished by NIH. Having worked as a victim advocate and sexual assault coordinator in both the legal system and nonprofit sector, Kate has a keen eye for gaps in services and thoroughly enjoys finding creative ways to fill them. As a survivor (and survivor of institutional betrayal), Kate is committed to this work and respects and values the many differing pathways survivors take forward. In her free time, you'll likely find her marathon training, hiking, traveling abroad, dancing bachata, or volunteering for RAINN's online hotline.

Timestamps ⏱️

Introduction: 00:15
Conversation with Kate: 1:34
Outro: 1:19:00

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Amanda Durocher [00:00:01]:
Welcome to new view advice. I'm your host, Amanda Durocher, and I invite you to join me here each week as I offer advice on how to move through whatever problem or trauma is holding you back from living life to the fullest. Let's get started. Hey, beautiful soul. Welcome to new good advice. My name is Amanda Durocher. Today's episode is a candid conversation with a fellow rape survivor. My intention for this episode is to offer an inside look into the realities of healing from rape.
Amanda Durocher [00:00:26]:
My hope is that through listening to this episode, other survivors will feel less alone in what they are navigating and also maybe to offer a new view on what it's really like to heal from rape. In this episode, I'm honored to be joined by a special guest, Kate Chisholm. Kate is the founder of Survivors Rise, which is a nonprofit here in Arizona, and her vision for the nonprofit stemmed from her extensive work as a doctoral student at the University of Arizona. Having worked as a victim advocate and sexual assault coordinator in both the legal system and nonprofit sector, Kate has a keen eye for gaps in services and thoroughly enjoys finding creative ways to fill them. As a survivor and a survivor of institutional betrayal, Kate is committed to this work and respects and values the many differing pathways survivors take forward. And I just wanna give a shout out to Kate. As you'll hear throughout the episode, meeting Kate was a turning point in my own healing journey, and she has helped me to feel so much less alone along my own journey. So I hope that through our conversation, we are also able to help someone else out there feel less alone.
Amanda Durocher [00:01:18]:
Because if you are a survivor of sexual violence, you are not alone. You're not the only one who is going through this. It is a devastating trauma that too many people have survived, and you deserve to feel supported throughout your own journey. So with that, let's jump on into this week's conversation with Kate Chisholm. Hi, Kate. Thanks for coming on the podcast.
Kate Chisholm [00:01:39]:
Hi, Amanda. Thanks for having me, and we finally did it.
Amanda Durocher [00:01:43]:
Yeah. We've been talking about this for a while. Kate is another survivor of sexual assault and rape, and we've talked about doing a podcast episode for a while because Kate has a nonprofit called Survivors Rise. Kate, why don't you explain to everybody what Survivors Rise is and the mission?
Kate Chisholm [00:01:58]:
Sure. Definitely. Thank you. Survivors Rise is it's a nonprofit that is dedicated to survivors of sexual violence, and it's dedicated to sexual violence survivors specifically because it's a very overlooked population and is often classed in with a lot of other types of violence, especially domestic violence when the needs are often very different and those are very overlooked. So that's why it was started. And the background goes a little deeper than that, but basically it's a place for healing and community. So the healing activities are all rooted in wellness and things that can be done in communities. So we have things like a calendar of activities and they're all rooted in different things like yoga and sound healing and going for nature walks and different things like that.
Kate Chisholm [00:02:38]:
So, yeah, I think that sums it up in a nutshell. There's also supposed to be a whole professional development side and educational side that goes along with it, but we're not there yet. We're working on it.
Amanda Durocher [00:02:49]:
Yeah. Building from the ground up. That's how I found Kate. Well, actually, we met through a support group for survivors a couple years ago. And then when I was googling again for Arizona in the area, I found your nonprofit. And I love it because as you said with how you described it, it's so aligned with what I believe and what I do as well. It's just when you experience it, you realize that you can either ignore it, I guess. I tried to do that.
Amanda Durocher [00:03:13]:
I repressed it for a really long time. Or you begin the healing journey, which I found as a lifelong journey. I don't know if I'll ever be fully quote unquote recovered.
Kate Chisholm [00:03:22]:
Yeah, definitely. I agree. It is a lifelong journey. And I think one thing about the nonprofit and just healing in general, that's important to understand from that is that I do think it's a lifelong thing. I don't think you ever go back to who you were and certain things just can't be reversed, like the way you see the world and your worldview and different things like that. And so learning how to move through the world afterwards in a way that you can tolerate is something that's really important. And then on top of that, just when new life events happen, it can trigger things that bring up either new things or old things that are still from that event or around that event that you still need to kind of work through and heal from. So that's a big part of it is that it's a lifelong journey, and it's open to people who are on that journey wherever they may be when they find that they need it or are open to it.
Amanda Durocher [00:04:10]:
Yeah. I think it's so important too, because I think as most survivors know, it's kinda like the death of a friend or the death of somebody you know where the grief comes in waves and you never forget that person who died, just like you never really forget your life before, or you never forget who you were, or you just are constantly going to maybe be triggered or have a layer come up where you just are sad that this happened to you. That's what I had yesterday. I just had a moment where I was just sitting on the floor and I was like, I'm just really sad that I went through this at all. And I just had to feel this feeling of sadness. And I was surprised because it wasn't like a a layer where I was looking at something that happened to me or trying
Kate Chisholm [00:04:49]:
to have a memory.
Amanda Durocher [00:04:49]:
It was just this pure sadness. I lived through an experience that I never should have.
Kate Chisholm [00:04:55]:
Definitely. I think that that's such a big thing. I feel like that's what I come back to a lot too is I'm just so frustrated that I was at this point in life where I was so happy and it was just, like, ripped away. I was like, I was like, it's been all this time and I'm still just I don't know. I'm like, did I peak?
Amanda Durocher [00:05:14]:
No, it got you sound.
Kate Chisholm [00:05:15]:
Do I pass it? Like, is it over? I don't know. It's really hard. I laugh and use humor to cope with a lot of it because that's what I need to do. That's just, I've also done that my whole life with everything, but I mean, it's not funny, but that's how I move through the world and tolerate being here.
Amanda Durocher [00:05:33]:
Yeah, me too. And I, I don't know. Maybe I'll cut this story. I don't know yet. But one of my favorite memories with you was we were eating pizza and we were laughing really hard about the idea that we would both rather be murdered than raped. And we were talking about, like, you could chop me up, but please don't put your penis in me. And we're, like, laughing and there's, like, people around it. So it seems so morbid,
Kate Chisholm [00:05:53]:
but that's like one of
Amanda Durocher [00:05:54]:
my favorite memories of you. Cause I was like, yes, somebody gets it. We find this funny. Other people would be horrified at this moment, but it's like such a truthful feeling.
Kate Chisholm [00:06:04]:
Yeah. It's so true. There were times afterwards where I was just like, why didn't this person put too much in my drink? Like, why? And there's this I have kind of a funny story about that too. Years later, I'm like finally getting back into songwriting. Like, that was a huge thing I used to cope. And then my creative brain just fully collapsed and shut off for a really long time. And I was finally getting back and I had this idea for a song. And it kind of brings up that sentiment a little bit.
Kate Chisholm [00:06:26]:
And I got to a point where I had just like a working title for it. I think it was called like, I wish you would kill me or something. It's like really morbid. And then I actually needed help with the Apple software. So I, like, called the Apple people, and they're like, oh, like, remote share your screen.
Amanda Durocher [00:06:43]:
Like, I wish you had killed me.
Kate Chisholm [00:06:45]:
And I was like, oh, no. Like, I don't are they gonna call someone after this? Don't worry about it. Because that was so frustrating. It was like after it happened everyone was like well you're people kept telling me they're like you're okay. Like you're okay. I'm like I'm not okay. I'm clearly not okay. Like what do you mean I'm okay? And I think they meant like, you're literally not dead.
Kate Chisholm [00:07:05]:
And I'm like, so that's not the kinder option that I'm feeling right now. Yeah. Maybe we'll put a point to work, but that's how I felt at the time and it's honest. And I think that a lot of people go through that.
Amanda Durocher [00:07:16]:
So Yeah. No. That is honest because I've felt that way too. It reminds me of have you read Roxane Gay's book about rape culture called Not That Bad?
Kate Chisholm [00:07:25]:
No. And it's been on me with forever, like forever. I need to.
Amanda Durocher [00:07:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's like the testament of that is the idea of like, it's not that bad because you didn't die. And when you go through this, you know, that that's not how it feels.
Kate Chisholm [00:07:39]:
Exactly. Oh my gosh. There's so many things about that that frustrate me as a sentiment. That's not up to anyone to, except the person who lived through it and how they're feeling. Yeah. It's frustrating.
Amanda Durocher [00:07:50]:
Yeah. Can you actually tell everybody a bit about your story? Cause why I think your story is so interesting is it's so different from mine. Cause you did go through the criminal justice system, which I didn't. And, you just tell everybody a bit about that process that you went through?
Kate Chisholm [00:08:04]:
Yeah, definitely. So what happened to me was when I was in grad school, I was like 27 or just turned 28. I don't know. And I went out for a drink with someone and I had a glass of wine at the bar, had a sip of their drink, and then just fully blacked out for basically 12 hours. At some point in time in the night, I woke up in their friend's apartment on a mattress on the floor totally naked, and I was, like, gone. I was not in my right mind. And I only know those things because I found videos and audio clips on my phone later. And then a few more things that were uncovered after going through the criminal system where I was like, wow.
Kate Chisholm [00:08:41]:
And nothing has ever come back. Like, it's all just, like, memories that I do not have. And then some more things happened in the morning when I was still super disoriented and, yeah. It was not a good time, very traumatizing and very odd to not remember anything, but, like, after a few months of going through that, I physically felt it. Like there were certain things that I'm like, no, like I wouldn't be crying. I would just be like, tears are just like falling out of my face. Like my body knows something happened. So that was confusing and very chaotic.
Kate Chisholm [00:09:10]:
And then my immediate thought was like, there's no way in hell I'm ever reporting this. Because all you ever hear, which are very valid stories about how terribly survivors are treated by the criminal system within the criminal system. This person was also sort of in a position of power in my life to the extent where, like, if I did report it, it was going to have repercussions for everything that I was doing in my life. It wasn't like he was some random community member, which that would also be really hard to report as well, but it was something that encompassed my whole entire life. So it was really difficult to make that decision. And for the first day, I was just like, I'm never reporting this. Like, I'm never gonna do that. It was the most terrifying thought in the world to me.
Kate Chisholm [00:09:51]:
I would think about it, feel sick, shake, have a panic attack and be like, there's no way I can ever do that. So I had made peace in my head of not doing it, but my brother actually talked me into getting a rape kit done. He's like, this is traumatic. Just go get it done. And I was like, well, do I have to involve police if I do that? And he called Rain, actually, and they were like, no. So I was like, okay. If I must. I was just so out of it too.
Kate Chisholm [00:10:15]:
The next few days, I was not in my head. So I just go to this place, get a rape kit done, get evidence collected. Some advocates came and helped me process what had happened and been like, yeah. We see this commonly. Like this person drugged you. And I was so confused and just a very confusing thing to go through, especially when it's someone who you think you should be able to trust obviously, and they do that. And you're just like, why? It's so confusing when you haven't had to process similar things like that before. And so I went through all of that and then had told some people in my circle who needed to be warned quite frankly, that this had happened to me because I was concerned that it would happen to them because they were in similar situations.
Kate Chisholm [00:10:54]:
And I just suddenly got a lot of pressure to report. So I did end up doing it and it was like the scariest thing I've ever done in my life. And I was like, okay, I know this is gonna be bad, but I'm a strong person. I have good support people. People who are here telling me to report, telling me that they're gonna support me through this. The people who I needed to be there in the space I was in in my life, they, you know, kind of promised that. It wasn't really a promise. It was just sort of like, yeah, we're here for you.
Kate Chisholm [00:11:21]:
So I was like, okay, that's a good thing. I'm going into this at a bigger advantage than a lot of people. And it just at a time in my life where I could do that, like, if that had happened to me when I was any younger, like 18, I never would have said anything to anyone. And it just would have been so different, but I did end up going forward and doing that. Then went through the criminal process and it was worse than any possible terrible outcome I could have ever conceived ever imagined. That was honestly the brunt of my trauma. I'm like, yeah, what I went through was horrible, but like what happened after was so unnecessarily even more traumatic and difficult. And that's really the thing that screwed me up the most and it's frustrating.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:01]:
Yeah. So you didn't feel like you got justice through the criminal justice system?
Kate Chisholm [00:12:05]:
No. I think a thing too, that I've kind of come to realize is that thinking about justice for me, even if it had all worked the way that it should have and the way that it is purported to work and this person did end up like in prison or something. Like it's so hard to say, I'm like how much more traumatic would it have been? Like he hired a private investigator. Like that was awful. It felt like I was being watched constantly and I couldn't leave the town that I was in. Like I had to be there for something. And that was one element that was really difficult for me. And then also just thinking about, like, had I gone to trial, the like, the depositions, the crazy bullshit that they have you go through.
Kate Chisholm [00:12:42]:
And, like, I had to give over my phone even though that had nothing to do with anything. They could have just taken the videos and audio that I had that were relevant to that night, but they treated me like a criminal. They're like, anything could be relevant. I'm like, I'm telling you it can't. Like, I'm telling you, I promise you that, like, conversations with my mom have nothing to do with what happened to me. Conversations with my friends from months ago have nothing to do with this. But all those different things that happen, I'm like, if that had even gone through the system the way that it's supposed to, I think it still would have been incredibly damaging. I remember just reading Chanel Miller's book, Know My Name and she went through the criminal process and she got a conviction and she just talked about how humiliating and horrible every step of the way like it is.
Kate Chisholm [00:13:23]:
And I just feel like that kind of system is not meant to build anybody up. It tears every single person. It's just lose, lose, lose. And it's frustrating because the whole time that I was going through it, I was just like, I didn't even wanna do this. I don't wanna be putting myself through this. I don't even wanna deal with this person. This person made me deal with them and then go through all these other people that are now involved too. And then all these people, like, random people, like police officers, like, title 9 people, all these people just know these super intimate detailed things about your life and they see naked videos of you and you're just like, how is this supposed to bring me justice? Like, what part of this for me is just? Because none of it felt like it was.
Kate Chisholm [00:14:03]:
And it was not. It was very violating.
Amanda Durocher [00:14:05]:
Yeah. It sounds like a real invasion of privacy.
Kate Chisholm [00:14:08]:
Yeah. Yeah. Very much so. It was huge invasion of privacy, extremely violating, just he humiliating. And it's so much to ask for somebody to do that and to go through it. And I'm like, this is exactly why I didn't wanna do it. It's crazy.
Amanda Durocher [00:14:22]:
Yeah. Was any part of it healing for you or do you feel like you began your healing journey after that part of the process was done?
Kate Chisholm [00:14:30]:
I would say overall, none of it was healing. It was very much more damaging than anything. The one thing that I would say, I guess, 2 things that I would only even know if I would say healing, but at least, like, clarifying for me. Maybe one was a little healing, but so one thing was like and I think you've you've seen it now. There's, like, once the detective I had to, like, beg the detective to go look for video footage. And so I called the apartment complex I was brought back to and asked them if they kept footage and blah blah blah. They were like, yeah. So I told my detective, can you please go get it? He he literally said to me, unless it shows you falling over in the lobby, we can't do anything with that.
Kate Chisholm [00:15:05]:
So I was like, well, can you get it? Because I would like to know what I was doing. Like, was I standing up? Like, should people have intervened? Was I behave I just wanna know what was going on. So he finally went and he got it, and it shows me just walking in and fully face planting in the lobby. And this guy takes out his phone and starts taking pictures and videos of me. And I can't stand up. I fall backwards. Like, I cannot stand on my own after having one glass of wine and a sip of a mojito, and this was hours after that. So for me, that was something that was very clarifying because beforehand, it's like you feel like you're going a little crazy when you're drugged.
Kate Chisholm [00:15:38]:
You don't know if you can trust your memory and it's just so confusing. And it's one of those things you don't want to believe so badly because it will be so disruptive to your life if it's true. And that was one moment where I was like, oh, no, this happened exactly as I was fearing that it did. And this person has no remorse and did this very intentionally. So that was one thing that for me was just like really clarifying and I was glad that I was able to get that piece of information and I wouldn't have been able to, if I hadn't gone through it. The other thing was doing a confrontation call, which it was like the worst idea ever and we didn't plan it at all. So basically what that is is it's when you call up the the perpetrator, like right on the spot and the detective is writing all these things for you to ask them and you have to be reading and talking and listening and answering and, like, doing all this stuff, and it's not a conversation that's your own. It's like you're just saying what the detective is making you say.
Kate Chisholm [00:16:30]:
But near the end, like, I was able to ask some of my own questions and different things like that. And that was something that I did find a little bit healing because at least at the end of the day, I know that I confronted him and that did feel empowering to me and it is something that I look back on. And I'm so glad that this guy doesn't think like, oh, I just did this and this person let me, like totally get away with it. That was good. But the rest of it was terrible. And I feel like for the duration of it went on for 4 entire years, this investigation that was just a shit show and nothing was done professionally. And I don't feel like I was even able to start healing until after, because I was just stuck in fight or flight the whole entire time. It was just a bad time.
Amanda Durocher [00:17:12]:
Yeah. I think I forgot it was 4 years. That's a really long time. That's what I've been struck by recently by talking to you and a few other people who've gone through the criminal justice system is how long it drags out and the sentiment over and over again that you can't really start healing till you're out of it because you're in that fight or flight the whole time.
Kate Chisholm [00:17:30]:
Mm-mm.
Amanda Durocher [00:17:31]:
And I I just don't know how that's supposed to benefit survivors, especially with such a low conviction rate.
Kate Chisholm [00:17:37]:
Exactly. Oh my gosh. Yeah. They're they're so frustrating. I, I remember like when I first started going through it, someone told me who had worked with a lot of people, they're like, people either pick healing or they pick justice. And I'm just kinda like, I didn't understand it at the time. I was like, I'll get both. I was like, actually, maybe I'll get neither.
Kate Chisholm [00:17:55]:
This is not great.
Amanda Durocher [00:18:01]:
Yeah. Hearing your story was healing for me to know that because I lived with a lot of guilt for really only time with not going through the criminal justice system. And honestly, I mean, it's very confusing for me because as people who listen to this podcast know, if you've listened to it before, you know, pieces of my story, if you're new here, hello. But I repressed what I went through for a very long time. So I didn't start healing from I was raped as a child and raped at 14, 15. I didn't start healing from any of that until around 26, 27. So I didn't really have the choice to go through the system. I really wasn't supported at the time.
Amanda Durocher [00:18:32]:
Like you mentioned, you felt like you would go through it because you felt you had support. As I processed what I went through, I see how I had zero support. So it wasn't an option for me, but I still carried that guilt throughout my healing journey. Knowing that so many other women could have gone through the same thing I did, especially because in my teen years I was gang raped. So I'm like, there's 4 guys there that could go out and it's very likely at least one of them did it again.
Kate Chisholm [00:18:57]:
Yeah. I've heard a lot of people who have not reported go through a similar process, like dealing with guilt of not reporting. And I'm just like, oh my god. No. You saved yourself. I just, like, wish I could give everyone who carries that guilt, like the biggest hug and just be like, this is not your guilt to carry. It is not. There was a woman who came forward after I reported who this guy had also done a very similar thing to, like, almost identical.
Kate Chisholm [00:19:25]:
And it happened to her, I think like 10 years before it happened to me. So I'm just like, how many people are in between? Like me and my friend were talking about this one day. I'm like, how many people do you think were in between? How often does like a person do this? Me and my friend were just joking. She's like, I don't know, like 4 times per year.
Amanda Durocher [00:19:41]:
Like, we're just gonna laugh and do these freaks, like, need to do this per year.
Kate Chisholm [00:19:48]:
But it was just one of those things where I was just like, if there was ever any guilt that anybody held on to, I would never ever, ever be like, goddamn it. Why didn't you come forward sooner? Like, then this wouldn't have happened to me because for so many reasons, like, the reality is probably it would have gone worse for someone who reported 10 years earlier even. I don't know anything about their story or why they didn't do it. And ultimately, like, the main thing is they are not the reason why this person rapes people. And that's what when I went had got my forensic exam done at the hospital, I was just like, I'm never reporting this. And they were talking to me about my options. I was just like, oh, not listening. No.
Kate Chisholm [00:20:23]:
No. Like, I was like, I don't wanna do it. If there were like 3 other people, I'd come forward, but I'm not doing this by myself. And I just remember them saying, you're not the reason that he rapes. And that was what I needed to hear. And it was so nice to hear. And that's what I would say to anyone else who struggles with that guilt too. You are not the reason that they do this.
Kate Chisholm [00:20:40]:
And on top of that, given so many people's experience who try to even go through the criminal system, like, probably gonna embolden them. It's probably not gonna stop that stuff. But, like, yeah, there's just a lot there.
Amanda Durocher [00:20:52]:
Yeah. No. It's interesting. I'm actually
Kate Chisholm [00:20:54]:
I'm like, I'm feeling kind
Amanda Durocher [00:20:55]:
of self absorbed right now, but I've never thought about it from the point of view if there was somebody before me. I've only thought about survivors afterwards.
Kate Chisholm [00:21:02]:
Mhmm. And
Amanda Durocher [00:21:03]:
you saying that, I'm like, yeah. If there was somebody who experienced the same thing I did before me, I don't blame them at all. Mhmm. And I never would.
Kate Chisholm [00:21:10]:
Yeah. Exactly. I'm just like, all I feel is compassion, and I understand this world does not make it easy or even bearable to come forward and talk about it. So why would someone and it's not on any survivor to take it into their hands to try to stop someone. And I think that's a very frustrating narrative that's pushed. It's like, well, we'll never stop if you don't report. And it's like, well, you guys never bring this to court. You never even bother trying.
Kate Chisholm [00:21:34]:
My detective told me from day 1, these cases never go anywhere. Everything went so wrong because the detective was already playing prosecutor and jury in his head. And he's like, this never matters. I'm just like, what is the point of you and your job then? And yeah. He did not have a great answer for that. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:21:53]:
There's really so much victim blaming in this society. Yes. And I think that's been a really hard part for me to heal as well is like, I have to heal from this incident I lived through. That was like the most horrible thing I've ever survived. And then on top of it, all the blame on top, like it was my fault was Mhmm. Like harder, almost. One moment in time I can handle.
Kate Chisholm [00:22:17]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:22:17]:
At least that's what I tell myself. The blame afterwards was that I got a lot of blame. I got shamed. I got slut shamed. Like, I asked for it. Like, I wanted it. Like, a 14 year old girl girl could ever even say that's what she wanted.
Kate Chisholm [00:22:30]:
It's so ridiculous. And it's sick. It's thick that that's the common narrative. It's a very pervasive victim blaming statement that still exists. Like, especially for, for anyone of any age, but especially for like, a literal child of minor.
Amanda Durocher [00:22:43]:
And the drinking aspect, you know, like you were drinking. You talked about that on Kate also has a great podcast, Surviving Justice. Shout out if you wanna hear more about her story. But you talk about how people made comments about you drinking. Like, are you sure you didn't just drink too much? And it sounds like there was a lot of victim blaming within just the fact that you were drinking. And there was drinking involved when I was a teenager. It's heartbreaking that we just are like, oh, well, you drank too much. So horrible things can happen though.
Kate Chisholm [00:23:11]:
Exactly. And it it was the craziest thing in the world. It was like, do you have literal receipts that show you? And by the way, he brought me somewhere else and fed me more alcohol after I was already fully blacked out. Just in my own personal case, it was such a frustrating thing because I'm just like, I know what it takes to black out. And I also can tell you that having one glass of wine and a sip of another drink is not gonna make me fully almost fully blacked out for nearly an entire 14 hours. Like, that's not gonna be the situation. So just frustrating. And, yeah, that, like, just because alcohol is involved, it is still such a thing that people are like, well, what did you expect? Like, all of that's I don't even like myself saying that all.
Amanda Durocher [00:23:50]:
But it's like that because even if you didn't drink too much, it's still not your fault. You still didn't ask for it, and you're taking advantage of. You know?
Kate Chisholm [00:23:58]:
Mhmm. Yeah. You expect a hangover. You don't expect to be assaulted.
Amanda Durocher [00:24:03]:
Yeah. It just shouldn't matter.
Kate Chisholm [00:24:05]:
It's just excusing people's behavior. Society is not ready to address the actual root cause and they're also afraid it will happen to them. So they're just like, well, we can blame you for this thing. That's like very much in my control and I would never do that and I would never be in this situation. And it's like, well, when you are. I know. Well, I
Amanda Durocher [00:24:20]:
have- I have- I have- I have- I have- I have- I have- I have- I have- I have- I have- I have- I
Kate Chisholm [00:24:20]:
have- I have- I
Amanda Durocher [00:24:22]:
I have read in comment sections, watched documentaries, and just seen so many different versions of that. Like, well, I would never do that. So
Kate Chisholm [00:24:31]:
I think that's one of the things that drives me the craziest is people who play that I would have, like, I definitely know what I would have done type of game. Like, you definitely don't. You have no clue how you're gonna react until you're in the situation. And even then, you're probably gonna surprise yourself in so many different ways. You you don't know how you're going to react, especially with something that is so traumatic. You don't know. And Yeah. No matter how well you think you know yourself, there's probably an instance.
Kate Chisholm [00:24:56]:
I think we talked about, like, fight or flight and, like, which one we lean more to, like, a while ago. And it's like, if people can think about themselves in a situation where they did something, were put in a fight or flight situation and surprise themselves with what they did. This is no different than that. And you do surprise yourself.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:12]:
Yeah. And I think one thing people who haven't been through it don't quite understand is that most sexual assaults and rapes happen by somebody you trusted. Yes. And so you act differently with somebody you trust.
Kate Chisholm [00:25:25]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:25]:
You ignore some of the red flags. Mhmm. You know, and you don't even look for red flags. You only see them as red flags later. You know, looking back being like, oh, because when you trust somebody, you you trust them.
Kate Chisholm [00:25:36]:
Definitely. And I think that's where it just changes your whole perception of the world if it's a deep enough betrayal too. You do not see things the same way anymore. And I think that's the most soul crushing part of that, of all of it is devastating. It changes your whole entire worldview. And I just don't think I'll ever see things the way I did again before. Honestly, like I'm usually not an ignorance is bliss kind of person, but in that way, I'm just like, Oh, what I would give to not wake up distressed about how people are
Amanda Durocher [00:26:07]:
and, like, the state of the world. But he's always horrible.
Kate Chisholm [00:26:11]:
It's a really rough adjustment when I grew up thinking the people I could trust, I could trust. And the crazy thing is too, it is always the people that you trust. It's the people who I've trusted that have hurt me in different ways and strangers who easily could have taken advantage of me that never have. And I know that's not the case for everybody, but that has been weirdly enough my situation. So I'm just like, what are you to make of that?
Amanda Durocher [00:26:32]:
Yeah. Have you seen The Matrix?
Kate Chisholm [00:26:34]:
No. Everyone asks me because I don't know movies. I haven't seen anything.
Amanda Durocher [00:26:38]:
It's a hard example to give if you haven't seen The Matrix, but it's like, Miel, the main character is leaving one reality entering the real world, like a real reality and the real world isn't pretty. And there's another character who sees the world that it's a matrix, but this character wants to go back in the matrix. And he's like, I know this isn't a real stake, but I want to go back and think it's a real stake. I think about that scene all the time
Kate Chisholm [00:27:02]:
because I want to be that guy.
Amanda Durocher [00:27:03]:
I wish I could go back and see the world naively. Yes. But I can't. And on my best days, I'm like, no, it's good that I see the world this way because it's the truth. But there are days that I'm like, throw me back into naive world where it's a little bit more rainbows and butterflies than where I live.
Kate Chisholm [00:27:24]:
Yes. Because you see things truthfully and clearly, but at what cost? Yeah. But it's a very big personal cost. And I think everything that you go through this, it comes at a huge personal cost that you didn't ask for.
Amanda Durocher [00:27:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. Is that one of the reasons you started survivors rise? Did you feel like that would help you along your own healing journey to help others?
Kate Chisholm [00:27:47]:
So for my whole life, I've very much been the kind of person who's like, if I see a gap or a need or something that I'm just like, well, that just doesn't make sense. Let's fix that. So to me, after I went through all of this and I was going through what I was going through and I was looking for any amount of help or resources or community organizations or whatever, and I would call and I'd be like, can you help me? They would be like, oh, maybe probably, or we don't do what you need. Or they'd be like, we have a domestic violence support circle. It's sort of the same thing, and it wasn't. I tried some of those things and, like, these dynamics are so different. And, of course, not to say there's not sexual violence in many domestic violence situations, but, like, by and large, that was not what was talked about, and I couldn't find, like, a group of my peers who I could relate to in any way. It felt like I was so alone going through it even though I knew I wasn't.
Kate Chisholm [00:28:30]:
I'm like, this is such a common thing. Why is there no space for this? So when I realized that, I was like, okay. Well, not now because I'm fighting my own demons and battles here, but, like, later, it would be great to to do something and to fill this gap a little bit. And then this happened to me when I was getting my doctorate, and it just so happened and worked out in a really weird way that my advisor had left the university. And so what I was going to study, which was more along the lines of an international kind of study, that went totally out the window. So I had to find something new. And this had just happened to me. I was going through this process with the school, like, report everything, and it was just on my mind constantly.
Kate Chisholm [00:29:09]:
Like, I could not escape it. So I was just thinking, if this is gonna be on my mind anyway, distracting me from everything anyway, I'm gonna be reading as because, like, I like to learn as much as I can about these situations too. When I go through things, I'm just like, well, okay, why am I feeling this way? Like, why, why, why, why, why? I just wanna Google all the answers. So I was like, if I wouldn't be doing that anyway, let's be productive about it. So for my dissertation, I ended up coming up with a topic about like survivor's experiences. It was 3 part of survivor's experiences with the criminal system, survivor's ex their perceptions of restorative justice programming and what they would think about that. And then the third thing that I was really interested in because it was like what I noticed was just so lacking. It was like, what do survivors want on their healing journey? What does healing mean to them? What does moving forward mean? What does justice in whatever term they think about it mean to them and what could help them to get there? And so that third part of my dissertation ended up kind of putting together this whole framework and concept for what survivors' rise is.
Kate Chisholm [00:30:08]:
And I was like, this is so doable. It can be done, but we obviously need some more resources to make it exactly what I was envisioning and what everyone else that was involved in that study had said that they would want to see to really fill it out. And I'm like, this can be done. And I think it's something that's important to the community and it's important. And it's just a topic and like a population that is just not getting the services that they should be getting. So, yeah, in a very like weird way, it twisted and turned to just end up being like, well, if I can't escape this, let's lean into it to see what comes out of it. And then we ended up here. Yeah.
Kate Chisholm [00:30:45]:
No. I love that.
Amanda Durocher [00:30:46]:
I started NuVu advice for a similar reason. I just didn't feel like anybody was talking about healing from sexual trauma and rape.
Kate Chisholm [00:30:53]:
And it
Amanda Durocher [00:30:53]:
Mhmm. It's not focused entirely on that. It's focused on the healing journey in general because I just found that when I was healing from rape, I had to heal from like Like it's all become so intertwined, like family dynamics, friendships, the way you show up in the world, your self worth, relationships. My relationship with Evan has very much been impacted by me being a rape survivor. It's not my proudest thing or my the thing I like the most, but it's just true. Mhmm. But I started it for that reason too. But I think honestly, because of the way society deals with it, so many people try to bury it.
Amanda Durocher [00:31:25]:
So many people try to never look at it again. And as somebody who repressed it and didn't look at it and with the teen one, like I knew, but didn't wanna look at it with the child one that was a shock when that came back. But it just became like I couldn't keep it repressed anymore, but I do understand why people don't look at it. But with that, I have found it is so much better now that I have processed so much of it. It doesn't make it easy. It doesn't mean like I'm not healed. Amazing. But my life is so much better.
Kate Chisholm [00:31:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. It helps a lot.
Amanda Durocher [00:32:00]:
So I can just like 100%. Like what
Kate Chisholm [00:32:03]:
you said about it brings up like every other drama basically too. And you don't even realize that at first and oh my gosh, it just puts you on such a journey. And that's what I think is important about it too is that, like, recognizing that and knowing that healing services, different things like that, and having the community and, like, the support to be able to talk about those things and process those things is so incredibly important because it's so hard to do on your own, and it shouldn't be such an isolating thing when we know how many people go through it. So, yeah, everything you said, I'm just like, yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:32:33]:
Because what I realized too when I look back is, like, I was living in the freeze response.
Kate Chisholm [00:32:37]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:32:37]:
So I had frozen this part of myself. And at some point it had to thaw, which then was going through fight or flight. And now I because I've failed so much, I just don't live in fight, flight, or freeze all the time. I'm very conscious when I go into it. Doesn't mean I don't go into though. I'm just conscious of it where most of my life I actually lived in freeze and it left me numb, but that kept me from feeling the good emotions. Like I was keeping myself from feeling the panic and the terror, but I was also keeping myself from feeling the joy, the happiness, and the love I deserved. And that's like one of the reasons I love the healing journey is because it's like, oh, I deserve this.
Amanda Durocher [00:33:14]:
Like I deserve to be free of this. Even though it may always be, like I said, like the death of somebody it's always there, but I deserve not to fear these people. I mean, that lived in my body. The fear of these people, I mean, it lived with me for a really long time. Now I'm unhinged on the Internet and The way I confront them is writing poems, like, directly to them on my page.
Kate Chisholm [00:33:33]:
I love that. I'm like, whatever. I feel like being unhinged
Amanda Durocher [00:33:37]:
on social media is such an important part of the process. It's just like It's
Kate Chisholm [00:33:42]:
necessary and it's good. And I feel like there are so many truths that are spoken when you get to that place. And I love supporting people in that part. I'm like, I wish I could still be there sometimes too because when I was going through everything I was for that 4 years, it was just like, I was just like in that fight mode the whole entire time. And it was just like fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. And I was just using my voice so much and advocating so much. And I just kinda had this realization, like, 2 days ago. Because ever since the case ended, I feel like I've just tapered off of that and it was in a little cocoon for a while, and I'm, like, starting to emerge a little again, doing more, like, healing work.
Kate Chisholm [00:34:17]:
And I've noticed a lot of things where you don't talk like I do the sound healing where it's just sounds like I do this stuff where I'm not using my voice as much anymore. And when I talk about it, it's like my brain is physically incapable of getting as enraged as it used to, even though I know it still lives in me. And I'm like, why is that? And I think I was realizing I talked about it to death, to everyone important who needed to hear it, to a random online audience that heard every unhinged thought I gave in my head. I talked about it constantly and in the end, nothing changed. And I know that's not the truth of it. Constantly, and in the end, nothing changed. And I know that's not the truth of it, but that's what it feels like to me. So at this point, I'm just like, what is the point of talking when I can just lean into this peaceful healing thing? Do that part instead.
Kate Chisholm [00:34:58]:
And I feel like I'm gonna, like, fluctuate with that still, but just at this moment, I'm just like also just exhausted. Ready to do other things, but just like the exhaustion has very much caught up to me. Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:35:09]:
No, I relate to that too. Cause I sometimes feel that way with the work I do. If I don't feel like I'm leaving an impact, it's like, what's the point? Because it is really hard to talk about. There's a reason not many people like talk about this unhinged on the internet. But, you know, it's funny you talked about how you like see a gap, so you wanna fill it. My type of leadership style is more like, I'm a reluctant leader. I stand in the background. I'm like, somebody else do this.
Amanda Durocher [00:35:32]:
Somebody else
Kate Chisholm [00:35:32]:
do this.
Amanda Durocher [00:35:33]:
Somebody else has gotta do this. Somebody else is gonna come forward. Right. And so when they don't, I'm like, I guess I'll come speak about this. But meeting you was so healing for me in general, because I feel like I finally met somebody else who's feels the same way I do. I felt, I didn't realize how lonely I felt until I met you. Like, it was just like, there's somebody else, it's sexual violence survivors. Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:35:52]:
Healing focused on that.
Kate Chisholm [00:35:54]:
Yeah. No, likewise. It's been really refreshing and nice to talk to someone who even moves through their feelings and kind of copes with a very dark humor and just like the way that the way that we can talk about things has been incredibly healing. Like so healing and it's so nice. Oh my gosh. Because I don't know if you went through this too, like during the time, did you lose friendships or like Yes. Okay. Yes.
Kate Chisholm [00:36:23]:
Yes. Babe. And it's so frustrating. And I think that's one thing I still have, like, yet to move through is like the loss of some of those. And I'm just like, was I like being the worst person in the world? No. No. Well, thank you. No.
Kate Chisholm [00:36:40]:
That's what I needed to hear. It just made me feel like sometimes I was, and I like, it makes you like question things. Like, I just, I'm so tired of having to do that whole thing where you look back and you're just like, okay. During that time, when I was going through this intense, insane period of time that like feeling things and dealing with things that no one should ever have to go through, I'm like, was I being horrible? Was I acting okay? I don't know. And I just, Yeah. Losing friendships when you're dealing with it has been a very difficult thing for me. Honestly, some of them I'm like, I think it's part of even like, this is probably like really off topic, but even in terms of how all this other trauma and all these other things come up and you see things in a different way, just sort of being like, maybe this friendship probably should have ended like 15 years ago. I'm not sure why it took this.
Kate Chisholm [00:37:26]:
Like, why was this the breaking point? But, yeah, I don't know. It's
Amanda Durocher [00:37:29]:
been true. Yeah. No. The the part with all the different layers and all the different traumas, it's I view trauma in the way that I lived in a traumatized place, like, as the lies I used to tell myself. Mhmm. Because in order to function before I was healing when I didn't have healthy coping strategies, I lived in, like, a lot of denial. I just ignored the truth for a long time and I made up stories. And a lot of the stories I made was that I was responsible for everything.
Amanda Durocher [00:37:52]:
I was to blame for everything. And that was what happened to me, but also just in any relationship, like I'm at fault, I'm the worst. I shouldn't have done that. And I never put the responsibility on anybody else. Mhmm. It was my healing journey where it was like, just not everything is my fault. That was a really heavy burden I carried for a very long time. And part of that went back to being raped is that I took that on as like, I guess this was my fault.
Kate Chisholm [00:38:16]:
Yeah. And that's, I think so common. And also just one of those things where I'm just like, I wish everyone who's been through this could just like magically melt that away from their thoughts. You're already left with so much pain and like all of these horrible things to deal with. And then on top of that, to feel like you have to shoulder the blame for it is an incredibly Abby thing to be carrying that it's just not yours to carry.
Amanda Durocher [00:38:41]:
Yeah. And that's why I like talking with You've Been Healing and Survivors Rise meeting with other survivors is it's like, there's some things that only like another survivor could tell you that like helps you like alleviate that burden. You know, it's like how people are telling you you're okay. And you're like, but I'm not okay.
Kate Chisholm [00:38:58]:
Exactly. That was the most frustrating thing in the world to hear. I'm like, no, I'm not. That's what that noise is. Like, I don't know how you can even look at me and talk to me right now and be like, you're fine. Like, are you great? But yeah, no, it's so true. And I feel like the group that has come together for survivors' rights has all been, everyone's just been so amazing and it's like brought in people, like all kinds of different people out all kinds of different places. But like some of the talks we've had in the support circle, I think have been so healing and hearing things from so many different perspectives that still have like an intersection of dealing with a lot of the same underlying feelings and situations and things like that.
Kate Chisholm [00:39:35]:
That has been both very healing and just, like, important and really powerful, I guess. I think it's really powerful when survivors come together and are able to validate each other's experiences and understand their own better because of what they hear from other people when we're intentionally set up to be silenced in the world. And we are creating space where we're like, no. We know that we're not gonna do that.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:01]:
Yeah. Yeah. My favorite thing is when somebody says they share something and then they say, wow, I've never said that out loud. Yeah. Because I've just found that because like you were saying that I feel like they want people who talk about rape to be silenced, survivors to be silenced. And talking about it is so healing. And it's hard because I think healing goes beyond talk therapy. Like if you're a survivor of violence, any violence, really like somatic practices, and there's so many different things you need, but there's true power in speaking your truth.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:33]:
Like I've found over and over again through my podcast and also just through sharing in, group settings and through therapy that regaining my voice is like, that's like hands down, but one of the most healing things for me, because it felt like it was taken from me and it's a hard thing to like, quite understand why. It's like so convoluted and complicated why it feels that way. Because it's not just the moment itself where your voice like is taken. Mhmm. You know, your ability to say no is taken. You Mhmm. Maybe do say no and nobody cares Mhmm.
Kate Chisholm [00:41:02]:
Or
Amanda Durocher [00:41:02]:
you freeze and there's all these things. And then afterwards when people don't believe you, it's like your voice is taken.
Kate Chisholm [00:41:08]:
Definitely. It's like you can talk about it and if people aren't believing you and they're not hearing you, you just kind of learn to not speak because that is the less painful option. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:41:18]:
It is less painful. Like being invalidated or people thinking I should have been over it by now
Kate Chisholm [00:41:24]:
Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:41:24]:
Or not understanding the depths of pain I was in. Mhmm. It was just easier not to speak about it because being met with indifference and rudeness and just other people's own inability to look at it was more painful than the experience itself at times.
Kate Chisholm [00:41:42]:
Absolutely. And I feel like even since just the situation I was in and the place I was in, the people that were around me, I know this is not the common experience. I feel so incredibly lucky that I felt very believed by most people when it happened, like, without question, and that I think that was for a lot of reasons. But it was everything that came after it. It was like the just the years of people not understanding why I was not over it. That was a huge thing. And, yeah, the depths of the the pain, there's no way to describe. I've not yet found a way to be able to describe that to another person or express that in any particular way, unless it's someone who's just seeing me and they're sitting with me and they're like with me through it.
Kate Chisholm [00:42:23]:
But like, oh my gosh, is I think one of the most frustrating things, cause it is such a deep pain and there's so much that goes into it. And I think one thing too, is that like a lot of people or not a lot, like a couple of people in particular that I was really close to and trusted a lot. Friends who I'd had for a very long time. Like when I would tell them about what was going on, it was sort of like, they were just like annoyed about hearing about it after a while. And I'm like, I don't want to be living this. Like, I thought you were the same person that I could tell things to. And like, I felt like I kept it. Like I was trying to keep it spread out and not like be inundating them with things all the time.
Kate Chisholm [00:42:57]:
Like I learned early on, you can't do that. But yeah, and people saying things that they, I could tell, they couldn't understand why I was doing what I did. Like, they would say things like, I'm sorry. This isn't working out the way you wanted it to, when things weren't going well with the criminal system. I'm like, I didn't do this because I wanted things, period. Yeah. And I'm not upset because things aren't going the way I wanted. Like you're saying, I'm upset because this is incredibly painful.
Kate Chisholm [00:43:23]:
I didn't wanna be doing this in the first place. And what just happened to me is an additional pain that I have to take on that I didn't ask for. It was just like, some people just do not understand it and they never will, no matter how intelligent they are, no matter how much you explain it to them. It's just not getting through. And it's just, it's hard. It's very hard.
Amanda Durocher [00:43:43]:
Yeah. I think one of the things people don't understand is how all consuming it is. Yes. I know that I repressed it and I froze it because that was the way for it not to be all consuming because when I opened up what I view as Pandora's box and I began healing, I could not shut it.
Kate Chisholm [00:43:59]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:43:59]:
Like every moment of my day, I was inundated with thoughts about rape. Mhmm. And about being raped, living in a world that doesn't look at rape. It just consumed my world.
Kate Chisholm [00:44:08]:
And
Amanda Durocher [00:44:09]:
I spent a lot of time by myself for years because it was where I could feel safe. Like going out in the world, it was all I thought about. It was just in my thoughts all the time. And I would think I saw these people everywhere I went. Like I'd be in the grocery store and I'd see somebody with a similar haircut or similar this. And it's been 15 years. I'm sure this guy has a new haircut by now, but part of me is still living and reliving being, like, 15 year old.
Kate Chisholm [00:44:35]:
Exactly.
Amanda Durocher [00:44:35]:
And I just don't think people understand. Like, it's literally all consuming.
Kate Chisholm [00:44:39]:
It's completely all consuming. And to that point, this is like so weird. Oh my gosh. So, okay. So this happened to me in a different town and then I moved here to get away from everything and I'm like, there's a 5,000,000 people here. And I knew this person also lived in the area or so I was told. But I was like, we will never run into each other. And this place is massive.
Kate Chisholm [00:45:01]:
There's just so many people. And then, of course, I think it was like my first night ever going out here. Guess who is the first person that I saw. Like, the second I got out of my Uber, I saw him get out of his Uber, and the only reason I even recognized him was because of the way he was holding his phone. It was the same way he took it out in that video where I fell over. I'd watched that, like, probably a 100 times trying to pick up clues of anything going on. But, yeah, it was the 1st night I ever went out. But the craziest thing was, like, I couldn't even tell if it was him.
Kate Chisholm [00:45:28]:
I just knew from the hand motion. And then later I found out I was very right about that. And I was just like, are you kidding me? I moved here to get a fresh start. There's so many people here. There's no reason that even in the event itself was massive. We shouldn't have even crossed paths. So what kind of sync joke is that? That would be good at first. Well, because I was trying to, you know, have a fresh start, not have the
Amanda Durocher [00:45:48]:
all consuming, and then the universe is like, there you go. Have an all consuming moment and let it ruin your night. And I feel like this isn't terrible. What a horrible. I got no response to that. So I'm like, dad,
Kate Chisholm [00:46:03]:
it's insane. My roommate was with me and she knew obviously the whole she was like amazing through everything. And I was like, him? Am I crazy? And we're like Googling his photo. It was just so weird. I just knew from that one motion, I was like, that's him. And it was so scary. And the thing that bothered me too was like, in my head, I had built up all this stuff. I was like, if I ever see that man again, like, boom.
Kate Chisholm [00:46:23]:
Oh my god. It's on the site. I was really tough about it in my head. I was like waging this war of legal battles, and I just thought I would confront him again for some reason. I don't know why. I don't even know what I would get out of that, but I literally just froze and was, like, in denial for the whole night. I was like, no way. There's no way.
Kate Chisholm [00:46:40]:
And it that's why I'm like, so you never know what you actually would do in a situation. And I remember being mad at myself, but looking back, I'm like, I'm really glad I didn't react because I would have done very poorly. I'm sorry. Random anecdotes. No.
Amanda Durocher [00:46:52]:
I'm like, I haven't replayed
Kate Chisholm [00:46:53]:
what I would do if
Amanda Durocher [00:46:54]:
I ran into any of these people a million times, so I've had some weird fantasy.
Kate Chisholm [00:46:58]:
I feel like the fact that I spent this past Valentine's day canceling a date and watching promising young woman by myself. It's to speak for herself. It was a mess of the day.
Amanda Durocher [00:47:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. One of my fantasies is I know what you did last summer. Do you know that, that movie it's from like the nineties?
Kate Chisholm [00:47:16]:
Yes. Yes. I do. I actually know about it. I've actually yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:47:19]:
Where I would just send them all postcards being like, I know what you did. Oh. That's like, you know, the writer and me, like, as her some of postcards and nuts and the snail mail to these people.
Kate Chisholm [00:47:29]:
I love it. I'm as like I
Amanda Durocher [00:47:31]:
guess I can't do it now that I said it out loud, but I never was gonna do it. I just noticed.
Kate Chisholm [00:47:35]:
We can cut it at all of you. I'm like, this is the kind of thing where I'm like, do it. It has to be done. That would be so cathartic. It would be so cathartic. Like, oh my gosh. Yeah. I don't know.
Kate Chisholm [00:47:47]:
Have you ever it's like, what do you I'm like, there's a
Amanda Durocher [00:47:50]:
world where
Kate Chisholm [00:47:51]:
that happens. There's a world. Yes. Okay. Makes sense. Yeah. Like, I oh my gosh. I'm just like, I could have blown things up so much more and had it go in my favor.
Kate Chisholm [00:48:03]:
And I and still to this day intentionally have not because I'm like, I would never want my name to be connected to this person's name. I mean, if that's what they do, that's what they do. That's not on me. But I didn't even want to like, there were things that came out about it, and I didn't feel any sense of gratification when that happened. I was just like, I wish none of this had ever happened. That's how I feel about it. Like, it was just, like, upsetting.
Amanda Durocher [00:48:25]:
Yeah.
Kate Chisholm [00:48:25]:
I was like, even though I knew, like, ultimately, this might be a good thing. It might help protect people. It might whatever. Like, I was just like, this sucks, though. Like, I just I don't feel good or positive or I'm just like, I don't know. I feel like people just think a lot of times too that, like, survivors report or do things or like talk about it later, whatever, just like as some kind of vindictive thing. And I'm just like, no, that is not at all it at all. I want peace in my personal life.
Kate Chisholm [00:48:52]:
I don't want anything out of revenge and I never have. And I think that was like another misunderstand there's just so many misunderstanding. There are
Amanda Durocher [00:48:59]:
so many misunderstandings. Because yeah. No. I really talk about it for other survivors.
Kate Chisholm [00:49:03]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:49:03]:
I felt really alone when I was healing. And I've talked about it a lot on the podcast, but I used to struggle with suicidal ideation. And that stemmed from being raped.
Kate Chisholm [00:49:12]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:49:12]:
And I just knew I wasn't the only one who struggled with that, but that came from the aloneness of it and feeling like I couldn't speak about it, feeling like nobody understood it. And I just was like, this can't be the way. This isn't acceptable to me. Mhmm. So I speak about it for other survivors. I don't think the people who did anything to me care. I don't think they have empathy. I labeled them in the category of predators.
Kate Chisholm [00:49:33]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:49:34]:
And on my worst days, I don't even view them as human, but I know we're all human. And I struggle with that though.
Kate Chisholm [00:49:41]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:49:41]:
Like knowing that people are capable of doing such horrible things, living their life the way they do. And I don't know. What I struggle with the most sometimes is that I was so impacted by this and was anyone else.
Kate Chisholm [00:49:54]:
Exactly. That's how I felt too. It's so frustrating to think about that. It's like you are so impacted and then you wonder if this other person even cared at all. I also feel like these people are like void of empathy. Like they will not feel anything about it, which is crazy to me. I don't know how people can't feel, but I guess they can't. Yeah.
Kate Chisholm [00:50:12]:
I've
Amanda Durocher [00:50:12]:
had so many professionals, therapists, and trauma professionals be like, they are impacted too, but I don't know until I see it myself. It's hard for me to wrap my brain around because of how impacted I was and how no one ever took responsibility.
Kate Chisholm [00:50:29]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:50:29]:
I mean, in my case, I've talked about it too, that there were bystanders. There were about like 10 people who just continued drinking, partying, whatever ignored what happened. And I'm like, do they even remember that night? Like, do they even know they were there? When I talk about it and my life changed forever. Do they even know they were present? Would they, is it even in their mind? And that's I was gonna ask you if you still struggle, like, what you what layer is that for you or what you may still be healing and struggling with sometimes. And for me, that's what I still struggle with is, I mean, how could just nobody else be impacted?
Kate Chisholm [00:51:04]:
It's so true. And I wonder in your situation, if any of the bystanders were, like, if they still think about it to this day or when big things like when me too happened and everyone's reflecting on everything, like in that specific year, I wonder if there were people who thought back and felt guilty or if they remembered it too. Like, I wonder that same thing too. That's a lot to think about. Because that was one thing when I was going through my stuff. I was like, how could no one have like, if I was that gone, how could nobody have noticed that and not stepped in? And I still wonder about that. I'll never know if I looked like I was coherent or not or if I looked like I was with, like, a boyfriend. Yeah.
Kate Chisholm [00:51:40]:
Yeah. And, I mean, your situation is so different. Like, obviously, what happened to you is, like, clearly not okay. Like, and I don't understand how a bystander couldn't step in and that, like that blows my mind.
Amanda Durocher [00:51:51]:
Yeah. It makes me worried about children like teenagers. Like I do understand that what happened to me, we were also young. Like part of me has empathy where I'm like, I understand where we're children in a way. But another part of me, the part the adult part of me that steps in is like, everyone was old enough to know right from wrong. Yes. Because I've heard a lot of of survivors who were my age or younger, but like make excuses for the perpetrator because it's like, oh, we were both children. Like we were both 14.
Amanda Durocher [00:52:18]:
Like, because you go back to your child mind and you're like, well, I was a child. So like, so were they. But at the end of the day, I knew right from wrong.
Kate Chisholm [00:52:25]:
Yes.
Amanda Durocher [00:52:26]:
And I knew what violence was and what it wasn't.
Kate Chisholm [00:52:29]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:52:29]:
And. Yeah. I mean, I don't talk about all the details of what I've been through because I don't think I I don't know. The details are for me sometimes, but there's some graphic details that, I mean, a 5 year old would know was wrong.
Kate Chisholm [00:52:43]:
Exactly. I, like, I feel like that level of violence is I think back to being, like, 14, 15, 16, and I'm just like, that thought to do that to someone would never have entered my mind. Like, it wouldn't have even been in my realm of universe of, like, living on this earth. So, like, what is what is wrong with this world and these people where this happened? Yeah. It's a lot to process. Yeah. It is.
Amanda Durocher [00:53:10]:
And it goes back to that, like, oh, sometimes I wish I could go back to, like, a naive bubble where
Kate Chisholm [00:53:14]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:53:15]:
These things didn't happen and they weren't so common. Like, that's part of it is that, like, when you really start to think about the numbers and how many people are impacted, it's like, this is an epidemic and we're not talking about it.
Kate Chisholm [00:53:26]:
It is an epidemic. It's completely an epidemic. And that, that I, yeah. And no one is talking about it. I think there's so many. Yeah. And it's frustrating and it's all about power and no one wants to give that up. And I'd be like, that's, like, the number one reason.
Kate Chisholm [00:53:41]:
It's crazy. It's like everyone will be like, oh, yeah. That's wrong. That's bad. Like, we all agree, but clearly not. Yeah. That's clearly not true. Like, people don't see it as a real prop problem, honestly.
Kate Chisholm [00:53:52]:
It's Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:53:52]:
It was something I was struck by with your story is how many people it sounded like from your podcast kind of said like, well, that's the system. Mhmm.
Kate Chisholm [00:54:00]:
But it's
Amanda Durocher [00:54:00]:
like, you are the system. Yes.
Kate Chisholm [00:54:02]:
It's like, you are this, you are literally these, you are the person who can make this different. Like, who do you think is in control here? Like, if you literally believe all you are is this, like, cog in a wheel and that's, like, the only thing you do, then first of all, like, how do you do this every day? It's like you picked a profession where people's lives are in your hands, and they're supposed to be. You're supposed to be. I don't think I was totally naive about the criminal system beforehand, but like, I just didn't know the depths of how absolutely absurd it was until going through all of that. And then talking to everyone who was just like, well, that's just how it is. And every single person in the system blames it on the jury, who is all of us and it's never gonna happen. And if you're the prosecutor, your job is to explain it in a way and like show the evidence in a way where they understand it and they will do the right thing. And cause I'm just like, do I believe that the criminal system is like crazy and jailing people for things that really should not be available? Yeah.
Kate Chisholm [00:54:56]:
I think that there's a lot of people who shouldn't be in for I think there's so much reform needed, but when it comes to rapists, I'm like, I don't care what happens. You go to jail and be sent away, Be sent to the moon for all I care. I feel like maybe we'll pick a different planet, but
Amanda Durocher [00:55:08]:
let's. Yeah. Yeah. Well, before we wrap up, what has been something that's been really healing for you on your journey? Is there like a tool, a modality, or what has been something that you go back to over and over again that helps you heal?
Kate Chisholm [00:55:22]:
Yeah, that's a really good question. I feel like it's changed so much over time and I think it's just made me realize how much in general as a person I needed to slow down and process a lot of things that have happened in my life that I just never did. And that is where I'm sort of at right now because I like, I used to be like, I'm a very physical active person. Running is my favorite thing. I love to hike. I like to just be in motion and movement and, like, just doing things all the time, and I would keep myself so busy. When I was in school, my classes were, like, back to back and work was shoved in there. Afterwards, it was, like, homework and other work and doing all this stuff.
Kate Chisholm [00:55:56]:
I was always doing so many different things, and I think it was to the point where I was distracting myself from a lot. But if I hadn't gone through this, I don't know if I ever would have taken the time to be like, well, what was that that I was distracting myself from? And so the first thing that I started doing after everything, it was like, everyone was like, do yoga, do meditation, do yoga, do meditation. And I was just like, oh my gosh. If I hear this from one more person. And then finally one day I was like, I'll do anything. I'd be like, did yoga and meditation. And I was like, wow. I had no idea.
Kate Chisholm [00:56:26]:
Like this and the science makes sense. It's like, if you are already at a 10 and you go for a run and like, you get like the endorphins and the dopamine, but ultimately your cortisol is still skyrocketing. Like you're never taking time to settle back down and calm your nervous system down and do those things that are so, so, so important for recovery. So I feel like there's no specific thing except the overall realization of just like slowing down and like giving your body and your mind and your spirit that time to just not be hustling through life every single and actually taking time to reflect in a meaningful way. Like still feel like there's like a lot of pain that I will probably be working through or have just forever and it will change in different ways over time. Yeah. That, and just like also the realization of being in community and being able to have spaces where you can talk to people freely about these things is so incredibly important. And it's just wild to me how isolated, like, society, the world, whatever, everything, like, wants us to be disconnected from each other and disconnected and, like, therefore without power because we don't come together around these topics.
Kate Chisholm [00:57:34]:
And, like, I think a good example of that is when I was at the university that I was at, they put together a support group and it lasted 1 single week before the university shut it down. Wow. Like, there was one, like, rogue counselor who was like, yeah, I'll do a support group. It was the most healing thing because I I didn't until that point, didn't talk to a single other person who had been through it. And then I, it was the most magical healing thing for me. I was like, oh my God, I feel the same way as so many of these people. And I'm dealing with so many similar things as all of these people, then they rip it away. Like, well, why do they do that? They don't want you to have power in numbers.
Kate Chisholm [00:58:06]:
So I feel like just those two things, like having more like intentional community spaces and just the overall settling, like slowing down, thinking, healing. Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:58:19]:
Yeah. For me, it's similar. My life is pretty slow these days, and I feel like it's funny. I I don't know if anybody would actually think this, but when I think about my life, I'm like, oh, I can hear people being like, oh my gosh, must be nice because I I meditate regularly. I journal daily. I play the piano. I exercise and I write and I podcast. And the truth is it's not a luxury.
Amanda Durocher [00:58:43]:
It's a necessity. Yes. For me at this point. I know what it sounds like compared to the outside world, but I also know what it's taken for me to be here. And it's just a necessity. I can't go into fight or flight as much as I used to. It hits my body so much harder. You know, I just have to be slow these days and
Kate Chisholm [00:59:03]:
that might not always be
Amanda Durocher [00:59:04]:
the case, but slowness is really what has helped me to heal as well. Learning how to be slow and be okay with the feelings as they arise. Because when I get too fast, I start ignoring how I'm feeling. Like how yesterday I just gave myself the space to be sad. If I ignore those, they just start to pile. And then it's a lot more work to come out of fight or flight and work through a bunch of feelings when if I'm slow, they kind of just come and go. And it's more like waves rather than a big like boulder. But that, yeah, slow life, just learning that it's okay not to go at the same pace as everybody else because my body was moving so fast for so long.
Amanda Durocher [00:59:41]:
Even when I was in the freeze response, it was like there was something always in the background keeping me frozen that it was like, my body was always stressed. I guess that's what it was. I was always in the stress response, even if I wasn't doing anything. So now my body just can't really be stressed as it used to. And it's hard though. I judge myself for it because we live in like a hustle culture and like, go, go, go. And I can be really inconsistent with the work I do, but yeah, it's just, I'm learning that this is just what it is to be a survivor. That's kind of what the past year was for me.
Amanda Durocher [01:00:10]:
It was just learning like, this is what it is to survive a violent crime. I judged myself for everything I did for so long. I judged myself for the stress. I judged myself for the fight or flight. I judged myself for all the negative thoughts. And all of a sudden it was just like, no, this is like the life it is to survive this. And I'm not alone. Like that was what really struck me.
Amanda Durocher [01:00:30]:
It was like, nobody's talking about this, but I know I'm not the only one who's very much impacted by it. I mean, I don't think you experienced it and you're not.
Kate Chisholm [01:00:38]:
Completely. And I think that's such a powerful way. Everything you said is so powerful and such a great way to describe just how feelings can build up. And it's easier when you're slowing down to notice them as they happen and move through that. It's like a slower life that just, again, against is like basically against societal standards. And it's like, I used to feel kind of guilty about that. And I'm like, well, why? So many people are forced to just power through these things that are so incredibly painful and so incredibly difficult. There are so many survivors that have to just, like, barrel through every day or are barreling through every day.
Kate Chisholm [01:01:11]:
We don't live in a supportive environment where people can take the time to do it, and it's just being able to do it. It is a it is a necessity because it becomes a necessity for people. It's going to show in their lives in different ways, like, when you don't deal with it. Like, it comes up, like, one of those things where, like, once it gets too full, well, like, a cup of water.
Amanda Durocher [01:01:27]:
I'd be like, wait. It's a really complicated one. It's not. The glass of water
Kate Chisholm [01:01:32]:
is just a stress thing poured in and poured in and poured in, and you're like not doing anything with it. Eventually it's going to spill over and it's going to, you don't know where it's going to end up and you don't know how it's going to come out of you. So. Yeah, I agree. I feel like it's such a necessity to be able to find the things that work for you and take the time to do it. And it's not fair and it's not Yeah. Ideal and it's not something I want to be doing or that I'm sure, like, a lot of people want to be spending their time doing all the time. But it's like, if I don't, things go, things get a little crazy over there.
Kate Chisholm [01:02:01]:
Yeah. It's like, Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [01:02:03]:
Yeah. Things get crazy for me. And I also, if I don't take care of myself, I'm like a shitty partner to Evan. I'm like not great to the people in my life. And that's something that I feel incredibly guilty for at times. It's like, dang, I just yelled at Evan. And I know it goes back to like, I'm triggered over, like, you know, being raped and things like that. And it's just, it's one of the reasons I move slow is it's it helps me to take care of myself and take care of the people around me because it's another thing people don't really talk about.
Amanda Durocher [01:02:29]:
I mean, I felt like I'm a monster for a long time. I felt like it turned me into a person who was not great to everybody around me. And I've learned to love myself through that and to forgive myself for all those different trauma responses because that's what they are, their trauma responses, but they're very much judged in society. And yeah, it's a part that's felt unfair.
Kate Chisholm [01:02:48]:
It is very unfair. There was like one time when I was in the thick of everything and I was working somewhere and I just had it. It was a very high stress job. Like it probably was not the best situation for me to be in at the time, but there was one day where I just had, like, a minor meltdown for a second. And then there was, like, not too far off from that, a meeting where someone brought up a confrontation call, which was so out of the blue and random. And I was like, I didn't expect to hear that here today. So and it was, like, right around the rape aversary is what I call it. And so already my emotions were so high end.
Kate Chisholm [01:03:18]:
And so it was just like, like, an internal meeting. Nobody was there. I leave the room. I go to the bathroom. I come back. Everything's fine. I just move on. Nothing happened and deal with it later that day.
Kate Chisholm [01:03:26]:
But then I get a call from the boss and they're like, so can you even handle working here? And it was like the most frustrating thing. First of all, like, I can be traumatized and capable at the same time. Yeah. Those things are not mutually exclusive. I had been very capable And like, honestly, that was like one of my favorite jobs to this day. And like, I felt like it was something that fit me so well. And I did do a really good job there. Like, I know that.
Kate Chisholm [01:03:50]:
And like that was validated by other people that was not this unsupportive person, but it was just it was so frustrating and just felt like such a stab in the back because it's like when somebody is dealing with this and like obviously having a difficult time, like clearly around a certain period of time, why would you not be supportive and want to help that person get through it? And, oh my gosh, it's just like, this world does not understand that a little support and empathy goes a long way. And especially in the workplace.
Amanda Durocher [01:04:17]:
I'm like, that's the whole point of my reflection series. It's just that compassion and empathy would have made a world of difference. It was actually all I needed.
Kate Chisholm [01:04:25]:
Yes. It's all I think that's completely all anyone needs. It's just a little bit more. And it was so funny because later on at the same job, somebody else who was, like, kinda rude about that whole situation, like, they had a day where we're listening to domestic violence stories. They had an extremely difficult time and they asked me personally to like, go hang out with them and sit with them for a while. Cause they were like, everyone's gonna be so judgmental if we go back in. And I'm like, since I'm not an asshole, I will come with you and I will sit with you. But like, you should know that this is a little bit hypocritical.
Kate Chisholm [01:04:56]:
But yeah, I'm just like that compassion and that empathy. Really simple to give and really life changing to get. So, yeah, I'm really glad you have that. That's like a pillar of what you're working on. Cause the world needs to hear that.
Amanda Durocher [01:05:09]:
It is. And I started a new view of advice to really talk about self compassion. I talk about it in like every episode. And it was like over this year where I was like, why am I so passionate about self compassion? It's because it's like nobody else is compassionate. So I had to learn it for myself. But now I'm at a point where like I'm a lot stronger and I'm a lot more confident and I'm, I don't hate myself to the same extent I did for a really long time that now I'm like, no, no, no. Again, Amanda was taking all the responsibility. Like I have to learn how to be kind to myself.
Amanda Durocher [01:05:35]:
I do. I think it's so important. But also we can be kind to each other. When you can show me compassion, which will then help me to be compassionate with myself. Yes. Rather than you being whatever, a lot of times, judgmental, then me having to go sit with it and like bring in that compassion later. It's like we could skip all that.
Kate Chisholm [01:05:56]:
Yes. If we
Amanda Durocher [01:05:57]:
were just fine to each other. Yeah.
Kate Chisholm [01:05:59]:
That's where the compassion comes in. Just the empathy, like just a little bit.
Amanda Durocher [01:06:04]:
Yeah. So helpful. Yeah. Just think about with the empathy and compassion, we also need a bit more courage. You know, what I lived through was like everybody in my mind's like cowered. Everybody chose themselves.
Kate Chisholm [01:06:15]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [01:06:15]:
And in one of my reflection stories, I say I was a damsel in distress. In a world that would say women shouldn't be damsels in distress. It's like I was pinned down raped. I was the definition
Kate Chisholm [01:06:25]:
Mhmm. Of a
Amanda Durocher [01:06:26]:
damsel in distress. Mhmm. No one stepped in.
Kate Chisholm [01:06:28]:
Yeah. And who was the person that was there to help? That's so so frustrating.
Amanda Durocher [01:06:32]:
With that courage. That's why I'm glad I met you because I think you're really courageous. You are like in documentaries.
Kate Chisholm [01:06:37]:
You talk
Amanda Durocher [01:06:38]:
about your story on the Internet. I just have my own little platform where
Kate Chisholm [01:06:41]:
I talk about it. Like you're
Amanda Durocher [01:06:42]:
out there, like talking about you went to New York to talk to a police about drug facilitated sexual assault.
Kate Chisholm [01:06:48]:
To be fair, I knew that nothing would come of that. I just had someone I really would like my hero that I needed to be my advocate. I was like, I need to meet her. I'll do anything for her, but no, that's very sweet of you. I feel like, honestly, I feel like the, the courage where I was speaking out a lot and just doing the crazy thing. I don't know if it was so much courage. It's just like my survival tactic at that time. Cause I just had like, it was all in here and I used to be such a person of and I still kind of am to an extent like what's on my mind.
Kate Chisholm [01:07:15]:
I just say how I feel, and I say I'm just very, like, this this is it. Like, what you see is kind of what you get with, like, me. And especially at that time, since it was so brutal, that was kind of my way of dealing with it. I'm like, I don't know if it was courage though. And I also don't know if it was a great
Amanda Durocher [01:07:30]:
idea, like half the time. I'm like, it definitely was a good idea. And it definitely is courage. What I've learned about courage is you never feel courageous in the moment.
Kate Chisholm [01:07:38]:
That's very true. That is so true. That's a really good point. It's terrifying. The things that take the courage to speak on and talk about are the ones where you feel like the most terrified in the moment to talk about it. At least that's been my experience.
Amanda Durocher [01:07:49]:
Yeah. It's not till later that you look back and you're like, I had some courage there. But in the moment, you never feel courageous. And I think that's what people don't understand about courage. Or maybe it's like maybe they think like, oh, I would feel a different way and then I'd step in where it's like, no. It's terrifying.
Kate Chisholm [01:08:02]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Exactly. That's so true. It's not like, oh, I gotta build up the courage to step in and help this. No. You just have to act. That's why people say, like, do things scared.
Kate Chisholm [01:08:11]:
They say that all the time. Like, I don't know who they are, but No, I'm afraid.
Amanda Durocher [01:08:13]:
Yeah. I don't know who they are either, but they're right and they're smart.
Kate Chisholm [01:08:16]:
You don't want that. Have you ever seen the show, I May Destroy You? It's on HBO.
Amanda Durocher [01:08:22]:
No. Oh, I've heard of it though. She wrote it based off of what she went through.
Kate Chisholm [01:08:27]:
Right? Yes. And it's, I think about that weekly at least. And I don't think I've rewatched it since the first time I saw it. Cause it's very, very intense, but it's like her experience with being drugged and raped, and she's not a 100 per she knows the guy's face. She doesn't know his name. And the more I reflect, the more in, like, each episode, I think was, like, at stage of her personal process and grief. And it was a lot of similar stuff that I feel like both you and I have done. And it's the only accurate representation of a rape survivor and their process that I've ever seen portrayed.
Kate Chisholm [01:09:01]:
And it's just like so good. And I don't know that just made me think of it because she goes like full crazy on social media.
Amanda Durocher [01:09:08]:
I'm like, this is so relatable.
Kate Chisholm [01:09:09]:
If you're just like, I know why you're doing this and I support it. Very relatable.
Amanda Durocher [01:09:15]:
Yeah. Yeah. I should watch that. I remember when it first came out, I wasn't ready yet.
Kate Chisholm [01:09:19]:
Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [01:09:20]:
I watched so many documentaries this summer.
Kate Chisholm [01:09:22]:
Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [01:09:22]:
I hadn't seen like a documentary about sexual assault till I was like 30.
Kate Chisholm [01:09:26]:
Wow.
Amanda Durocher [01:09:27]:
32 years old. I couldn't engage with it. I had to be with my own story for a really long time because what survivors know, what other people tend to judge is like, all our stories are very different.
Kate Chisholm [01:09:39]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [01:09:40]:
I had so much self doubt around what happened to me that it took me going through my entire process kind of alone before I could really let other people in. I found support groups helpful, but sometimes the narratives of, like, documentaries would just kinda mess with my head where I was like, well, that's not exactly what happened to me. And it's like, yeah, because your story is different.
Kate Chisholm [01:09:56]:
Yeah. No. Completely. That makes a lot of sense. I remember even after what I went through, like, I was so resistant to any kind of support group for survivors of sexual even though there wasn't one, people were like, oh, you should find 1. And I'm like, no. I need to find one specifically where someone was drugged. Like, you're like, people have been drugged because I can't relate to what these people are saying about having memories about things.
Kate Chisholm [01:10:16]:
And they're like, no. But there's like other common things that you'll and I was just like, no. There's not. And I like finally,
Amanda Durocher [01:10:20]:
I was like, no. There are. Like, even though it's a
Kate Chisholm [01:10:22]:
dream, but it yeah. It took a lot of time in processing and like understanding my own experience before I could engage meaningfully and like understand like more of the themes, I guess that, yeah.
Amanda Durocher [01:10:34]:
I think it's like what you said at the beginning, even your experience with having no memory. I mean, I didn't have memory for a while, but I think every single survivor goes through the idea of you don't want it to be true.
Kate Chisholm [01:10:45]:
Yes.
Amanda Durocher [01:10:45]:
So you live in a bit of denial. You live in a bit of doubt. Mhmm. And I think everybody experiences that in their own way. Did I make that up? Did I over, like, dramatize that? Mhmm. And when you're in that place, it's hard, I think, sometimes engage with people who are really confident in their stories.
Kate Chisholm [01:10:59]:
Very much so. And it's hard to express that doubt. I feel like for me, like, I was feeling that doubt, and it was hard to express it to people too because I was thinking, if I'm saying I don't know and I'm not say confident in understanding what happened to me, then why is anyone gonna believe what I'm saying? But it's so ironic because the more you talk to people who have been through it and who understand it and are confident in their story, they're like, that's just a part of the process. Like, you're going through some denial here. Like, you will get there. Yeah. Yeah. But it's hard.
Kate Chisholm [01:11:28]:
It's hard to come out. Like, you just it's such a big thing and no one wants to go through this process. Like, no one wants to be calling anyone out for a reason. Like, contrary to popular belief in society, we're not all out here to just ruin people's lives. That never get ruined by the way.
Amanda Durocher [01:11:41]:
For October 8th at all. I know. Because they're always like, oh, it's gonna ruin his life or it ruined his life. And it's like, Evan always reminds me my life is not ruined. But I there are days I just walk into his office and I just look him in the face and I'm like, did this ruin my life?
Kate Chisholm [01:11:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. I feel that way very frequently a lot of times. I'm just like, why did my life have to be ruined for this bullshit? Look at you. Yes. And I
Amanda Durocher [01:12:08]:
know. And my very real human experience is some days, it's just like, did this ruin my life? And then Mhmm. Some days, I'm like, there were a lot of blessings in this. Like, I don't know if I ever would have figured out how to love myself without this happening. But. Mhmm. I mean, that's like a gift I gave myself. Like I made beauty from the ugliest thing that happened for me.
Amanda Durocher [01:12:29]:
Nobody else did that for me. And Hey, a life of ignorance doesn't always sound so bad. I mean, you know, but this is the hand I was dealt, you know?
Kate Chisholm [01:12:39]:
Exactly. And no one else gets the credit for making like the good that you were able to make from it, but you like that credit does not get anywhere near the people who harmed you. Yeah. That's another thing. It's just like, oh, gosh. Like, when people are like, oh, but look at all these great things that came because of this. There's just a lot there's a lot of, like, the toxic positivity talk that goes around when it comes to any type of tragedy, I think, too, especially when it it's something as personal as, like, a sexual assault or rape or something along those lines, hearing those things. I'm like, please stop saying that to people.
Kate Chisholm [01:13:13]:
Yeah. Just, like, stop. I don't know about you. And I was gonna ask, like, I personally spent probably too much time wondering, like, what would my life had been had this not? I see it as like this fork and I like see the other fork as a very real thing. So I'm just like, what would my life have been? Where would I be now? Like, how would I be feeling? What would I be doing? Had this not happened to me? Like, do you go down that path a lot too?
Amanda Durocher [01:13:38]:
I do. Especially this year that I'm finally not living with PTSD and suicidal thoughts. Mhmm. That just happened for me this year, which was which was a blessing. You know, it's like Yeah. That blessing came, but it should have never been a blessing I needed.
Kate Chisholm [01:13:50]:
It. Exactly. Yeah. Because I
Amanda Durocher [01:13:52]:
It's like and this year is like, I feel like I'm starting from square 1 in a lot of ways. And I know I'm not, but at the same time, I'm like, I would have been so much farther with all these things I've wanted to do. Because I feel like I have my brain back in a lot of ways. And I'm like, I lived 15 years without a brain. That's how it feels. We're like a traumatized brain. I'm finally not as traumatized. And it's just, yeah, I do think that like, God, I could have, I could have done some with my life.
Amanda Durocher [01:14:23]:
And I'm trying. I mean, I remind myself I'm not old. I'm really not. I'm really not.
Kate Chisholm [01:14:27]:
That's true. We're still so young. I always feel really old too. But the other thing is like, I'm getting really old and you're like, that's scary. I don't like it. And I like, no, thank you. Cause I still feel very stuck at like 28, like the age that it happened a lot of times too. I'm just like, I want those years back.
Kate Chisholm [01:14:42]:
I'm starting to get over that finally this year, I think. But before this year, I was just like, no. Like, I'm redoing this. I I wanna redo. Like, this isn't fair. But I'm just like, okay. Well, there's still time. Yeah.
Kate Chisholm [01:14:55]:
I'm not ancient. Yeah. Just what do I want now? What do I wanna do? And that's even hard to figure out too. I know certain things I want, but I feel like life moves so fast and time gets so weird and warped when you're dealing with all of this. It almost feels like it's rushing by and there's no time to stop and really sit and be like, okay. Like, for all of life, what do I want? And I'm like, is that just too big a question?
Amanda Durocher [01:15:15]:
I laugh because my therapist would say, yes, it is. Because I go in every session and say, but what am I doing with my life? And she's like, what a debilitating question. Like, no wonder you feel so overwhelmed. Like, that's a big question that you ask yourself all the time. And I'm like, right. But what am I doing with my life?
Kate Chisholm [01:15:31]:
It's like, I need answers.
Amanda Durocher [01:15:33]:
I do remind myself a lot that that's a big question and we don't have to have that answer.
Kate Chisholm [01:15:39]:
That is that is like really nice. Thank you.
Amanda Durocher [01:15:41]:
Thank you. Thank you. You're very much.
Kate Chisholm [01:15:44]:
For
Amanda Durocher [01:15:44]:
sharing the wisdom.
Kate Chisholm [01:15:45]:
Yes, absolutely. That helps a lot.
Amanda Durocher [01:15:48]:
And before we wrap up, I do wanna leave everybody with a little inspiration. Yeah. And I wanna say to you that even though because I'm probably one of those people who I think like as a survivor, I can say there are some gifts throughout this journey more so than a random person. And I don't wish any of us went on this, but I will say I think the best gift that I've gotten and that I can see you've gotten to is that empathy that we are looking for in the world. We are more empathetic to the real struggles people go through. And on my best days, I'm like, I wouldn't want to be blind to that again, because there's a lot of people out there struggling and I don't look away from that anymore. And that is a gift.
Kate Chisholm [01:16:31]:
Yeah. That's a really eloquent way of putting that. And very true.
Amanda Durocher [01:16:35]:
But on my worst days, I don't feel that way.
Kate Chisholm [01:16:37]:
Yeah. No. I was like, yes. And then on other days, I'm just
Amanda Durocher [01:16:41]:
like, I don't want any part of it.
Kate Chisholm [01:16:44]:
So I want to redo on all of it. Yeah. No, that was a very nice inspirational way to end it. And I hope that as more time goes on and as our lives go on and others too, who have been through this, it just becomes more and more of that feeling and more of that and less of the pain of everything. I really hope it does. And like, I can't say for sure, but.
Amanda Durocher [01:17:04]:
Yeah, I think it will. And I think as more people come together in community, it helps with that because empathy, I mean, that empathy that I, that gift of empathy I have, I kind of need somebody across from me to get that. I mean, my therapist tells me, Amanda, you can be empathetic with yourself. So we practice that too, but it's a real gift to look at somebody and to understand them deeply and to know they understand you too.
Kate Chisholm [01:17:27]:
Very much so. Yes. Yeah. That is definitely huge. Yeah. Well, thank
Amanda Durocher [01:17:33]:
you so much for coming on the podcast.
Kate Chisholm [01:17:35]:
Thank you for having me. I'm so glad we finally nailed nailed it down. That's great. Yeah. Thank you so much. And I appreciate everything you do and having this space and inviting me out. So thank you.
Amanda Durocher [01:17:46]:
Yeah. And I appreciate everything you do. Like I said, I I think you're a hero. I found you and then I listened to your podcast and I was like, I would follow this woman into that. I finally found a leader I respect. That's just I fell for a lot of false idols back in the day. Amanda had a lot of trust issues. And you, I was like, this girl's real.
Kate Chisholm [01:18:04]:
Oh, that is the sweetest thing.
Amanda Durocher [01:18:06]:
This woman's real.
Kate Chisholm [01:18:09]:
I'm like, if we went into battle at this point in time, there'd be a lot of side quests that wouldn't make much sense, but, you know, we'd get better. Yeah. That's so sweet though. No. I really appreciate your courage and just everything you do and everything you've done to help out too. Like with the nonprofit, like, just such a huge help and support and so proactive and it's been so helpful. And I feel like I'm finally, like, in you, I found somebody who is also so trustworthy and courageous and you just have things clear and straight and it just, I don't know how to express it the right way. I
Amanda Durocher [01:18:42]:
feel the same way about you, so I understand.
Kate Chisholm [01:18:44]:
Yes. Thank you. So thank you for being here and thank you for being a part of this journey and letting me be a part of yours.
Amanda Durocher [01:18:52]:
That's a beautiful way to end this. Thank you. Yes.
Kate Chisholm [01:18:54]:
I thought that. Thank you. Thank you
Amanda Durocher [01:18:59]:
so much for joining us for today's episode, and thank you so much for taking the time to listen to Kate and I discuss our own stories and our own experiences as survivors of sexual violence. I have found it to be so healing in my own life to be witnessed in my truth in my stories. So thank you so much for taking the time to listen. Kate and I have been debating starting a podcast, and I share that here because I'm gonna put a poll on Spotify. And if you think Kate and I should start a podcast, say yes. If you were like, this episode was enough. That was unhinged. Then you can say no.
Amanda Durocher [01:19:30]:
And if you're on Apple or YouTube, write, yes.
Kate Chisholm [01:19:33]:
Start a podcast. We're trying to
Amanda Durocher [01:19:34]:
get an idea if there's anybody out there looking for this type of content, if people are interested in us just candidly talking about what it's like to be survivors. So if you're someone who enjoyed this episode, we'd love to know that, and we'd love to know if there's, yeah, if there's an audience out there looking for this kind of content. So thank you so much for listening. I hope we were able to offer you a new view on whatever you may be going through. Sending all my love. See you next time.