5: How Softening in Your Relationship Creates Ease: Embracing the Feminine
In this episode, Amanda and Kelby explore how to soften in long-term relationships. They discuss the journey from a “hardened” state to embracing a softer, more feminine energy within romantic partnerships. The conversation delves into how softening fosters trust, safety, and support. Sharing personal stories and real-life examples, Amanda and Kelby reflect on how their past experiences and healing journeys have helped them let go of control and embrace vulnerability.
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They also touch on the importance of allowing partners to offer support, the impact of stress on intimacy, and how societal expectations often favor a masculine approach, making it harder to soften. This episode also offers practical tips for cultivating softness, focusing on compassion, quality time, and mindful practices to nurture a more balanced, open-hearted connection with partners.
Book Recommendations
Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life: Life-Changing Tools for Healthy Relationships by Marshall B. Rosenberg PhD
Women's Anatomy of Arousal: Secret Maps to Buried Pleasure by Sheri Winston
Interested in Learning More about Kelby’s Coaching Services?
Check out Kelby’s Website to learn more
Or email her at - coachedbykelby@gmail.com
Looking to learn more about Amanda?
Check out Reflections to learn more about Amanda’s Healing Journey
Connect with Amanda & Kelby to keep the love going all week!
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This podcast was transcribed by an AI tool called Castmagic. Please forgive any typos or errors.
Kelby Knutt [00:00:09]:
Love under the scope.
Amanda Durocher [00:00:16]:
Welcome to Love Under the Scope. I'm Amanda Durocher.
Kelby Knutt [00:00:19]:
And I'm Kelby Knutt. And this is a podcast where we explore long term relationships and all of the ups and downs, the beautiful, and the hardships that occur when we are in deep with someone romantically.
Amanda Durocher [00:00:35]:
And today, we wanted to talk about how as women, we were gonna focus on our experience as women in straight relationships, but how as women we can begin to soften into our relationship.
Kelby Knutt [00:00:46]:
This is something that I learned to do in my current relationship. It took some time and it's still happening every day, but it's so rewarding to go through this kind of process of melting the heart and relaxing into trust and safety with another person, specifically a man in our case.
Amanda Durocher [00:01:12]:
Yeah. Did you even realize you weren't soft in your relationship? Like, did you have a moment where you were like, oh my gosh. I need to soften, or is it something that's just happened for you over time?
Kelby Knutt [00:01:23]:
I think I had a moment where it did occur to me. Before that moment happened, I didn't even really have an understanding that softening was a thing. And I didn't even know that I was kind of hard, I guess, for lack of a better word. You know, what's the opposite of soft? Hard. And I was. It's like life is hard and tense, and I can't rely on anybody else. Right? I have to do this all by myself.
Amanda Durocher [00:01:52]:
I loved how you used the words relax, like, relax into your relationship, trust, and safety. Those, I think, are inherent to that softening feeling because I too didn't realize how hard I was in my relationship. And it was through my journey of finding inner safety that I also found safety within my relationship that I realized I could let go. I guess that's also what a part of softening for me is, like, a letting go of my defenses, a letting go of these guards I held up for a really long time, not just in my relationship, but with the world in general.
Kelby Knutt [00:02:26]:
Yeah. It definitely applies to our life outside the relationship as do most things, I think. We can apply them in, like, a broader context. And I think a lot of it goes back to, you know, we talk about the inner child a lot because the inner child just comes up a lot in relationships. So, you know, if we look at the inner child, our early life, our wounds, Did we learn or believe that we had to do things on our own, that life was inherently hard, that we had to take on responsibilities that weren't really ours? Right. And were we people pleaser types? There's a lot of reasons that you would become kind of hardened and develop this shell, against not only the world, but your own partner.
Amanda Durocher [00:03:11]:
Yeah. For me too, and this does with my inner child because a lot of my trauma happened when I was young. But when I was on my journey of healing from trauma, I created a lot of walls around me to create that new relationship with my inner child. And it was through that journey that then once I felt not healed, but for me, it was really I struggled from PTSD for a really long time. And when I stopped having PTSD, that was when I realized that I could begin to soften. It wasn't actually until I stopped living with PTSD that I could even soften, and it was something that wasn't easy for me to do at first. I don't know how you felt about your journey with learning to soften within your relationship, but I found it incredibly difficult.
Kelby Knutt [00:03:54]:
Yeah. It is. Because I think there's fear. You know? What's gonna happen when I, quote, unquote, let go? There's, like, a unknown on the other side of letting go that can be scary, I think. Mhmm. If we're so used to, like, clenching and and holding on really tight, it's like this is the way that I make sure that I am safe, and I'm gonna make sure that I control every situation. And by doing that, I will be safe. And so, yeah, there can be fear, and it can definitely be difficult, especially towards the beginning when you're just starting out.
Kelby Knutt [00:04:31]:
And even I mean, it's still difficult for me today. So yeah. Absolutely.
Amanda Durocher [00:04:37]:
Yeah. For me, I have to let go of control in order to soften because I think surprises like, softening allows surprise to come in. It allows somebody, yeah, to surprise you or for the world to surprise you, life to surprise you. And so I found it incredibly challenging because I can be a controlling person. I'll be honest. I'll call myself out for that. It's been something I've worked on for a long time. It was a coping strategy for a long time, learning to control.
Amanda Durocher [00:05:03]:
If I can control my environment, I can remain safe. But by allowing myself to let go of control, that's the process of me softening, and I actually find a lot more joy there than with trying to control everything.
Kelby Knutt [00:05:17]:
Life feels a lot better when your body isn't tense, when your mind isn't tense. And I actually wanna speak to the body element too because this isn't something that only lives in the mind. This is like a body feeling of clenched. For me, it would show up a lot. It still does in my shoulders where I'm like hunched almost. And even like in my jaw, that whole area of my body reacts to this feeling of controlling and that hardness. And it can also bleed into sex and how we have sex. And are you able to soften in the bedroom, you know, which I think can actually be sort of like a playground for experimenting with softening in your relationship.
Kelby Knutt [00:06:06]:
So I think it's interesting. You know? Yeah. Like I said, it's not only the the dialogue in our mind, but it extends into the body itself and that tenseness.
Amanda Durocher [00:06:16]:
For sure. I find when I'm hardened, I don't really even have a sex drive. It, like, requires me to soften to open up to that intimacy. Doesn't mean I can't have sex, but I don't have the same sex drive I do when I soften to life in my relationship.
Kelby Knutt [00:06:32]:
Yeah. I'm not surprised by that. I mean, if we feel distrusting and scared, like, biologically, that's not a time where we would wanna have sex when we're afraid. You know, if you look at our ancestors, sex drive would go away and other people that are listening and myself. And so it can be very valuable to do some kind of, like, softening process before you have sex and then just, you know, long term learning to soften the body. And again, that's something that you can do just on your own, noticing when are you tensing up like that and what is the sensation in your body of that hardness? Like what does it feel? Is it in your gut? Is it like a pit in your stomach? Are you like me where it all is in your neck and your jaw? I mean, I even have this problem that's persisted for a few years. I'm embarrassed to say that my gum is bruised because of how I've clenched my teeth and I've been to the dentist and he's like essentially I can't do anything other than give you a mouth guard. Like, you just have to stop clenching.
Kelby Knutt [00:07:44]:
Like, okay. So it totally affects our body too to be in that state.
Amanda Durocher [00:07:50]:
Yeah. I also am a clencher. I sleep with a night guard. I have to because if I don't, then I get horrible migraines, and it affects my entire body, like you're saying. And I think the hardness feeling for me feels like that clenching. I do that too in my mouth and in my neck and in my shoulders. But it also it just feels like there's, like, a hard shell that I put up around me. And when I begin to soften, I can feel it start to melt.
Amanda Durocher [00:08:17]:
But it can take time for me to do that because I I'm not always soft. I mean, I don't know if anybody is. And I find stress makes me feel harder. So it's usually for me a lot of, like, destress processes help me to soften as well.
Kelby Knutt [00:08:32]:
Yeah. I wanna speak to something you just said that I'm not always soft. I wanna make it clear, and I think you would agree, Amanda, that we're not saying that we should always feel soft. It's about a balance, you know? And I think the reason we're speaking to softness is because I think as a society, and especially if you look at women in particular, we can have this hardness without the balance of the softness too, where we can go between the two. It just feels like it's always hard, hard, hard. At least that's how I felt. So we're definitely not vouching for like, just be soft and breezy and whatever open all the time. Like there are times where that hardness is a good thing, right? Like if we're looking at feminine masculine ideally we have a balance of both.
Kelby Knutt [00:09:19]:
We can call in both qualities. It's just, I think, in a lot of women and men, but we're speaking to women because that's who we are. I think we have an imbalance and it's just hard, hard, hard.
Amanda Durocher [00:09:32]:
And speaking to that too, yeah, we all have this masculine feminine within us, but I think our society in general leans a lot more masculine with everybody. You know? So it's like that hustle culture here in America is very masculine based. That stress driven, that work hard, get things done quickly is to me a very masculine quality, and you see that throughout all people. Like I said, especially here in America, in The US.
Kelby Knutt [00:10:00]:
Yes. Yeah. You're not doing enough. Like, you gotta be doing more. Like, hustle, hustle, hustle, get it all done. And the perfectionism too, I think that's for me where my hardness comes from is, like, has to be perfect all the time. And I grew up believing that I shouldn't show my emotions too. Like that's not okay to the point that I'd hide my emotions from Kai because I just want to seem like perfect all the time and nothing bothers me and that skew towards masculinity I think can pull us away from being in touch with our emotions and accepting them and embracing our emotions.
Kelby Knutt [00:10:38]:
Right?
Amanda Durocher [00:10:39]:
Definitely. And I liked how you mentioned the perfectionism part because I think we see it in all different areas. Like, one area I see it in is I'm not a mother, but you can see it in motherhood, this idea of being the perfect mother and having to do everything. You would think, oh, that's a feminine quality because it's mothering. But if it's driven by this need for perfection and this need to do do do, to me, that's more leaning into the masculine rather than the feminine softness quality that we're talking about. I
Kelby Knutt [00:11:12]:
dentist again. Something with teeth going on today. But I had a a dental tech working on my teeth and she was telling me about how, you know, she's a single mother and she's like, I don't need a man. Like, I can pick up my kid from school and make the money and pay the bills and da da da da da. And no no judgment necessarily, but I remember it striking me. I I understand you're a single mother, so you don't really have a much of a choice, I guess, right now. But inside of me, I just was like, I don't want that. Like, I want to have help whether it's from my partner or maybe it's from family or friends or whatever.
Kelby Knutt [00:11:49]:
Right. But that just sounds like too much. At that time, I was like, God, I've carried a lot. And to think of living that way where you're carrying so much, it's just like there's gotta be another way.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:03]:
Yeah. I really think the feminine needs a container, like, needs the support of someone else. And that doesn't even have to be a long term relationship. It doesn't have to be a loving partner. It could be the support of family. It could be the support of a best friend or even if you have a really supportive roommate. I really think for, like you were saying, for that feminine to foster and that softness to come out, we do need support. And I think men need support too.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:29]:
Like, this again, masculine, feminine qualities exist in all of us, all humans.
Kelby Knutt [00:12:34]:
I like that you say a container. I think the way that I think of that is, like, if the feminine is kind of this watery quality, then, you know, water has a container no matter if it's an ocean or a glass of water. And within that container it can flow around and it gives the feminine this almost like boundaries which I think boundaries could be a good thing. Right? Boundaries can give us some sense of freedom because we can kind of play within this, yeah, this container. And so I totally agree with you. And I wonder if that's something that we've sort of moved away from in our society more recently is like, we aren't giving our selves as women boundaries of like I don't wanna do that. That's that I don't wanna do. And this I do wanna do.
Kelby Knutt [00:13:26]:
Right? Those kind of boundaries for ourself. I'm not even saying our partner or other people. Giving ourselves boundaries of what we're not willing to do and and what we are willing to do.
Amanda Durocher [00:13:37]:
Yeah. I think so many women fall into the people pleasing category. Not everybody, but I know I do, and I know I've spoken to a lot of women who fall into that, like, saying yes to too many things. And I think that that's true. It's one of the first practices to softening is even learning to say no to things that don't serve you and that aren't gonna fill your own cup up with your own spirit.
Kelby Knutt [00:14:01]:
Yes. It's so true. Saying no can be softening. It might sound counterintuitive to some people, but it's not. It's our way of having limits for ourselves so we can rest and we can trust ourselves and our own judgment. Like we do a whole process. I have a certification in female sexuality. And one of the practices is that you lay down and you hover your hand over your body and you feel for a yes or a no for touching that certain body part.
Kelby Knutt [00:14:33]:
And basically what you're doing is you're sensing your body's well, yeses and noes. You're sensing your body's desires. Right? And desire could be, I don't desire to be touched. Right? Or I don't desire to take on all of this stuff.
Amanda Durocher [00:14:52]:
I think in today's society too, we're just taught, especially as women, to just say yes, yes, yes, and to take on so much more than we have capacity for. And I think a lot of people have less support than we used to. I think we used to be much more community driven. And I think today, there's a lot of people who don't, like, live in isolation, but I think when you live in a city and things like that, it can just be harder to find that community feel. I know I've struggled to find that, and I think that I just don't know if it serves us in the long
Kelby Knutt [00:15:25]:
run. I don't think so. I think we need help, and I'm not talking about just women, men too. But if we're speaking as women, like, we need help and support. And I think part of softening is learning to ask for help Mhmm. And knowing when you need help, which is a really hard one for me. I mean, sometimes my partner will just kind of impose help on me. Like, yesterday, I was super overwhelmed and we had been doing chores and we still had to go grocery shopping.
Kelby Knutt [00:15:58]:
And I was having a moment and he was like, let me go grocery shopping, and I'm gonna drop you off at home, and you're gonna go lay on the couch, and you're gonna go do Mhmm. Something that is not a chore, and I'm gonna do this for you. So he'll, like, actually because sometimes I'm just like, no. I can do it. I can do it. Let's go. And he can even sense, like, she needs a break, which I'm very thankful for that.
Amanda Durocher [00:16:23]:
I think that that's one of the things I struggled with at the beginning of realizing I needed to relax more into my relationship was that I struggled to ask for help. And Evan always wants to help. And what I've found time and time again is when I finally ask for help, he's like, oh, thank you for finally asking. Like, haven't I already asked you if I could do that for you? And I'm like, oh, yeah. I guess you have. And I've just ignored you, like, time and time again. And he just wants to help me. He wants me to be helped, and he wants to provide for me in different ways.
Amanda Durocher [00:16:55]:
But it requires me asking for that help so many times. And that was really hard for me at the beginning.
Kelby Knutt [00:17:00]:
I could understand that personally. I've been one that's like, I can just do it all on my own. I don't need your help. And the ironic thing is I think a lot of men, they really wanna help. They feel fulfilled by feeling like they are supporting or they're like a key role in our lives and they make life easier for us. I do think men find that fulfilling. I know my partner does. I'll tell you the story that I mentioned earlier and it sounds kind of silly.
Kelby Knutt [00:17:30]:
It's a small little story. It's nothing like grand. We were both working from home and he came into the office and he said, do you want lunch? And I said, yes. And he goes, okay, I'm gonna make us sandwiches. And I was like, oh, it's okay. No, I can make the sandwiches. And he was like, no, I'm gonna make the sandwiches. And I again was like, no, I'm gonna do it.
Kelby Knutt [00:17:55]:
It's okay. I'll do it. Don't worry. I got it. And he was like, Kelby, I want to make a sandwiches. Just sit down and keep working, and I will make them. And it really hit me, like, oh, this would be fulfilling for him to make these sandwiches. And my role in this situation could just be being very grateful and expressing gratitude when he serves me the sandwich.
Kelby Knutt [00:18:22]:
Wow. Thank you so much. This is a beautiful sandwich. It's so tasty. Thank you for making my life easier because I could just come out of the office and sit down and there's my meal. You know?
Amanda Durocher [00:18:33]:
Yeah. I've mentioned on one episode that Evan's love language is words of affirmation. And I mentioned that because when I fight him and he wants to provide for me, that goes against even his love language. When I just say, like, you were saying, yes. Thank you. And I'm grateful. That is a way he feels loved. He gets to provide for me, and I'm so grateful, and he can feel that that actually when I push back and I'm like, no.
Amanda Durocher [00:18:53]:
No. No. I'll do it. I notice it creates tension between us rather than me just being like, thank you. That creates a softening really in both of us. It's not just in me. Something softens in him as I soften, if that makes sense.
Kelby Knutt [00:19:06]:
Yes. Yeah. It's totally a two way road. And something I would add to that is when we start to accept help so let's go with the sandwich example. Can we be grateful and and a genuine place. Right? And be okay that we no longer have control of the situation at least the way that we thought we did. Yes. So let's say he makes the sandwich and it's like he put, you know, mustard on it, which I don't like mustard.
Kelby Knutt [00:19:38]:
Can I lovingly accept the sandwich and and even eat it because I'm not allergic? I just don't love mustard. And then maybe I do say something, you know, thank you so much. It's so tasty. Next time, I do usually prefer no mustard or whatever. Like Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:19:57]:
Yeah.
Kelby Knutt [00:19:57]:
Yeah. Whatever kind of loving language, but also just knowing the process is happening. Like, okay. This is a learning experience. You know?
Amanda Durocher [00:20:05]:
It's funny you bring that up. It makes me think of this example my mother always gave me regarding her and my dad where when my brother was young, my dad he worked a lot. So my dad took my brother on the weekends, and he would take them for Saturday afternoons. And he would always get my brother, like, donuts and really sugary things. And my mom was like, oh my gosh. We don't feed him those things. Like, she would try to be really controlling. And then actually her mother said to her, do you want the help or not? Your husband is willing to take your son all day Saturday on his day off.
Amanda Durocher [00:20:37]:
Will you let them have their own time together and just let it be? And that was one of those lessons my mom passed on to me in my own relationship, like you were saying, with the letting go of control of it may not be done the way you would do it, but can we accept the help and accept that we can't control other people and everything they do and just accept the help.
Kelby Knutt [00:20:57]:
And weighing the benefits and cons. I think there's a classic example here of, like, you send your boyfriend or your husband to the store and, like, a man at the grocery store is like I don't know. They buy random crap. Like, I don't know. It seems to be a man thing.
Amanda Durocher [00:21:13]:
They're like, we've never bought this brand before. We buy the same brands every week and then cheese. I don't understand what happened.
Kelby Knutt [00:21:20]:
My dad would do that. My mom would be like, why did you buy, like, two boxes of Cheez Its? Like, because they're BOGO. Like, what? You know? Yeah. And so we have to look at
Amanda Durocher [00:21:29]:
this guy just went grocery shopping
Kelby Knutt [00:21:29]:
for you or whatever it was. Right? Grocery shopping for you or whatever it was. Right? He did this thing that made your life easier. Can we accept that maybe he bought a couple things that were not exactly the way that you would've done it or not the exact brand that you normally like and be grateful for the positive, the things that made your life better about him doing this thing for you and knowing too that it can be refined. Like, you can be loving and also offer feedback in a way that is loving too. Like, thank you so much and usually I do prefer this brand. Like, you can still do that. It's just about can we offer the gratitude because I think that is really important to people and also to men is to feel the acknowledgment of how life was made easier for us.
Amanda Durocher [00:22:19]:
And I can feel that way in my relationship too. I don't mind doing the house chores, but I do like that extra gratitude when Evan notices I'm taking on more of the housework than he is. I just always like to remember that too that I like gratitude, so I'm sure he does too.
Kelby Knutt [00:22:35]:
It makes such a difference. There's a book called Nonviolent Communication, and that's where I'm pulling just a piece of this from because he talks about giving appreciation and how it can really help to call out what this person doing this thing for you did for you. Like, how did it make you feel and what did it do for you? And that helps us soften too because when we feel gratitude, that brings in softness to our body, to our mind, and to our partner. So if we can genuinely drop in with the gratitude, thank you so much for making this sandwich. It made it so that I could continue doing this really important work, and therefore, I feel at ease all because of this sandwich. Right? Which had mustard on it, which I don't normally like, but we'll talk about that later.
Amanda Durocher [00:23:26]:
Yeah. I just like hear you saying finding that genuine gratitude. And I think that can even be a process if we're used to things going a specific way. When we like things a certain way and we can be a bit controlling, it's an important reminder to ourselves to almost soften in that moment to be like, my go to would be to be critical right now. But let me remember to soften and to be grateful. And like you said, you can always say something, but can you say it in a loving way rather than a critical way?
Kelby Knutt [00:23:54]:
It takes time and inner reflection. And usually when we're critical to our partner, the way they do things, it's because we're criticizing ourself.
Amanda Durocher [00:24:03]:
Mhmm.
Kelby Knutt [00:24:03]:
And that's where this stems from. Oh, why couldn't you do this right? Oh, you never get this right. Like, this is our inner dialogue that's happening. And therefore, we have this urge to extend it to our partner. Right? Because they are our mirror and we project everything onto them, usually. When we work on bringing in the gratitude and kind of pausing before the criticism comes out, we are doing the same for ourself. Any work we do with our partner, we're doing with ourselves.
Amanda Durocher [00:24:36]:
Yeah. I like that you mentioned the self piece too because I wanted to mention that at least I know for me with the struggling to ask for help and even the critical part of me, that stemmed from being hyper independent, which is my inner child had to figure out how to go in the world on her own. It was one of her coping strategies, one of my defense mechanisms. I can do it all myself. And I think so many people struggle with that, but I think a lot of women struggle with that. And I think that when we're in those long term relationships, we likely bring that in with us. Right? We bring our inner child, and accepting help is one of the ways we can begin to heal that we don't have to be hyper independent. Nobody's supposed to be hyper independent.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:16]:
We can be independent and depend on one another.
Kelby Knutt [00:25:21]:
It's funny. You mentioned in our arguments episode about, like, I kind of said, oh, I'm usually so independent. And now I feel like I need Kai sometimes. I need this relationship. And you did say, actually, we're made to depend on each other. And and it got me thinking how we can depend on our partner for support and for love and safety. And it's not to say that they're gonna create that for us, but they can certainly support that in us. And we can trust that.
Kelby Knutt [00:25:52]:
And we could still have our freedom because I think part of when we're talking about a softening is we can soften and trust and we can still have our own sense of freedom and independence in a way too. Right? I wanna go do this thing on my own and I wanna have whatever, like, a say in this. It doesn't mean that we have to let go of everything and not, like, have a care in the world.
Amanda Durocher [00:26:18]:
I was thinking about how we talked about how the masculine almost creates a container and the feminine kind of can learn to flow within that container. And I was thinking about that. I felt like I had to do my healing journey all by myself. I felt like I was doing it all alone. And when I stopped having PTSD and I could start to see the world a bit clearer, I realized that Evan actually though he couldn't do the healing work for me, of course, he couldn't, he created the container. He created the safe space where I could heal. He financially provided for me so that I could have all the resources I needed. And he actually created this safety for me to be able to do what I needed to do.
Amanda Durocher [00:26:56]:
So though I was doing something independent, my healing journey, it was very much able to go the way it did because I had that support, that masculine support. I'm a survivor of rape, sexual violence. I noticed that it makes a difference to have somebody who's able to support you through that process. And when we're really in it, it can be hard to see that somebody is actually supporting us, but I think there's a lot of ways people can support us.
Kelby Knutt [00:27:23]:
I have felt that way myself. If you're used to doing things on your own and you're wanting to soften, we talked about how it would be hard at first and I think I'll speak to that. When I've been really upset or down, my first resort is to run to my room and just cry by myself and no I don't need anybody to help me. I'm gonna process this by myself. Meanwhile, deep down, I'm, like, deeply lonely and I'm really craving somebody to come in and be with me. And that's what Kai has helped me with is being that like, the image that I get with that is, like, he's a rock and I am this flowing water or maybe it's a breeze. It's this flowing. And he is just sitting there like a rock and somebody to cling onto, like something to hold onto while you're going through kind of harder times.
Kelby Knutt [00:28:23]:
And you can do that for yourself too. I do believe that. We can be a rock to ourselves. But, man, it's really nice when somebody else is that for you.
Amanda Durocher [00:28:34]:
Yeah. I have the same Kobe strategy maybe where I like to hide in closets. I like to I don't know if this is weird, but I actually like to surround myself with clothes. It, like, softens me. I used to do it as a child. I used to hide in my closet and put clothes around me. I think the sensations around me when I'm feeling disoriented. But I just find so many times, Evan, he knows I do that, so he'll come and he'll sit with me in the closet.
Amanda Durocher [00:28:59]:
And the second he comes and sits with me, I immediately soften. I go from being angry or something to, like, all of a sudden I just cry about whatever was bothering me or my strong reaction. And there have been times that I have comforted myself out of the closet. That sounds silly. But, yeah, just there's something really nice about having somebody. I think it just softens something quicker. I think it just helps soften having somebody else there to support you in those times. And this is a podcast about long term relationships, so we do wanna learn how to allow our partners to help us in those moments.
Kelby Knutt [00:29:30]:
Absolutely. And, you know, since you opened up about coming out of the closet is what I was gonna say.
Amanda Durocher [00:29:34]:
I was laughing. I was like,
Kelby Knutt [00:29:35]:
we get it. We get it, Amanda. My version of that, I think, was smoking weed for the longest time. I think a lot of people could relate to this because marijuana does have this, I think, energy of I've heard it be described as, like, a mother energy where it does have a feminine energy to it because it kind of brings you into this place of fuzziness. And for some people, it can, like, open them up. Even it can even get you into a creative place for some people. Now for me, I would abuse it, so I can't say that it did, you know, anything mystical for me. And I abused weed for ten years probably, and half of that was in my relationship.
Kelby Knutt [00:30:19]:
And that was my attempt to create softness for myself. That was the strategy that I used when I was a teenager, and then it followed me into my late twenties and just last year. And I still dream about it because it's how I created softness. And even when I had a partner who allowed me to soften, I still clung to it because that's how desperately I don't know. Maybe it was just a habit at that point, but that's how desperately I wanted to feel softness.
Amanda Durocher [00:30:49]:
Yeah. I think it's interesting that you mentioned too that you did have a partner who would allow you to soften, who wanted you to soften, but it's really a choice. Right? We have to choose to soften because the things that keep us from being soft are so often these defense mechanisms, and they can be hard to let go of. It's probably why it's so difficult sometimes to soften because letting go of control, opening up yourself emotionally, opening up your heart, I think that's a big part of softness. When I started to soften more in my relationship, I didn't even realize how hardened my heart was. I just felt like, oh my gosh. I'm more openhearted. And it sounds super cheesy to say, but when I was going through the process, I just there was no other word.
Amanda Durocher [00:31:26]:
I just kept going, oh my gosh. Gosh. I'm, like, opening my heart. I'm a very empathetic person naturally, but it just even more so, I just began to just be open, especially to Evan and have more empathy for him and myself within the relationship because I think I can be empathetic with the world, but sometimes it's the people closest to us that I can keep that gift of empathy to myself because it can be easier to blame or point fingers where when I soften, I'm able to be really empathetic to both of us within the relationship.
Kelby Knutt [00:31:54]:
I think that's the goal is, like, not only gratitude and empathy for your partner, but for yourself. And I will say, I think this is a good place to transition into you're talking about opening your heart and, like, how can we soften? What does it take to get there? And I think we can maybe speak on some practical steps or maybe not steps, but, like, methods of actually doing that.
Amanda Durocher [00:32:19]:
Yeah. Definitely. Do you wanna start?
Kelby Knutt [00:32:22]:
Yeah. I feel like, again, the inner child just always comes back up. I think that's the place where we could start. You know, we can start also with meditation. I think that's maybe the first building block is, like, sitting in meditation and meditation not meaning that you're sitting there and you have an empty head because I think that's what a lot of people think meditation is, which is unfortunate because it's not. But you can do a meditation with your body. Like, how do you feel in your body? Like, what are the sensations? But I do ultimately think that the first big chunk of inner work is gonna be looking at the inner child. How did they learn to love? How did they learn the world is you know, how did they learn to trust themselves or distrust themselves? I think that's the big first step is the inner child piece.
Amanda Durocher [00:33:14]:
I think that's huge too. And I just smiled because when you were talking, a really practical step that I've found helps is get off that step that I've found helps is get off that cell phone. Also, our inner children it depends how old you are. But I'm gonna say they didn't have cell phones, so they want you off the cell phone too. Joking. But I find that getting off my phone and disconnecting is often one of the first steps too because then I have to be with myself. I think our phones distract us so much. It's almost like we're masking like a discomfort sometimes.
Amanda Durocher [00:33:45]:
And when we put that phone away especially for me, I like to go on walks in nature. That helps me to soften. And on those walks in nature, my inner child starts to come out. My inner child loves nature. We, like, dance down the sidewalk. Kelby knows I just bought a CD player so that I don't have to bring the phone with me because I like to just listen to music and relax. So I think the meditation definitely helps, but if that's even hard for you, you can have fun with your inner child. I think that helps us to soften too, just bringing play and fun into our life and allowing that part to come forward.
Amanda Durocher [00:34:15]:
I know sometimes that almost has to be the first step for me when I'm really stressed is adding an active element and, again, boneless. And then I'm usually able to meditate. But these days, I find sometimes I have to go for a walk first.
Kelby Knutt [00:34:30]:
Yeah. That makes sense. Get the body involved because the body and the mind, they are one. So moving the body, definitely dance, even, I don't know, some forms of exercise, I suppose. And I wanna just speak to yeah. You mentioned the cell phone. I would even liken I mean, they're they're own things, but I would liken the phone to a substance, like, almost, like, substance abuse problem because I know when I felt overwhelmed, I would turn to weed. And I think we do that with our phones too.
Kelby Knutt [00:35:01]:
Like, oh, I'm feeling too much let me open the phone and scroll and that's how I felt with weed. So I think there's an element of compassion too because when I think of softness I really think of compassion and I think that's probably the foundation of softness for me. And when I think of compassion, I think of my grandmother. Like my mom's mom was a big player in me feeling some sense of compassion growing up. Yeah. So who or what evokes compassion for you or softness or whatever the word might be? And can you learn to call in that person or that thing or that place that brings that feeling of compassion out? Because when you can anchor into an entity like that or an archetype, I think it makes it real. I mean, if I sit with my grandmother, I can feel how her energy was. Oh, she was like a breath of fresh air.
Kelby Knutt [00:36:06]:
You know, I can see her. I can feel myself giving her a hug. So who or what helps you to soften?
Amanda Durocher [00:36:13]:
Yeah. I think that's a really good piece of advice because for me, it's oftentimes as we've both talked about, and I know you do in your work, when I'm in that meditation bringing in that divine mother presence or bringing in somebody like mother Mary or another archetypal presence that embodies that compassionate feeling. Because it's also by bringing that in, I feel like something has compassion for me, and then it helps me have compassion for myself. But allowing that compassionate presence to come forward, I find, like you said, it just helps to soften things so quickly because compassion really is softness. I don't know if you can be compassionate and hard. What do you think?
Kelby Knutt [00:36:54]:
I mean, we talked about the balance earlier, so I do think that's part of it. I mean, there are times in our life where hardness is called for. Like, if you're being stalked in an alley, just to give kind of an extreme example, like, maybe you do wanna be a little hard. There's a balance, but I think compassion in most cases in life, compassion is gonna be the answer. I do believe that. When in yeah. In my experience, like, anytime that I felt upset and my first response is to go off on somebody or whatever, like, bringing compassion in, I never feel regret when I respond with a level of compassion, even when I'm setting boundaries. Like, you can set boundaries in a compassionate and soft way.
Kelby Knutt [00:37:38]:
You can.
Amanda Durocher [00:37:39]:
Definitely. So I was trying to think in my own life. I'm like, I think compassion's just inherently feminine quality too. And, again, everybody has both these masculine feminine qualities. So I think the compassionate nature comes out when we're leaning a little bit more to that feminine, but it's not like you have to be fully in your feminine to be compassionate.
Kelby Knutt [00:37:58]:
Agreed. I think the key is balance.
Amanda Durocher [00:38:01]:
It is about balance. And I think for practical steps on how to soften, I know for me with that balance, as we talked about, was asking for help and allowing Evan to provide for me helped to restore balance within my life. And for me, I, for a long time, resisted Evan fully financially provides for me. And I only mention that here because I was so freaking resistant to that for such a long time. And I had so much guilt. I had so much shame. And I felt like I was this heavy burden on him. So I was carrying that.
Amanda Durocher [00:38:36]:
And it was not helping our relationship, and that would cause me to harden carrying all this shame that Evan provides for me financially. But when I finally accepted it and was like, Evan is happy to provide for me financially, we both softened. Allowing him to provide for me helped us both to soften and helped him to even, like, wanna provide for me more. I know it sounds silly, but the more I was like, thank you. This really is helpful. The more he was like, how else can I help you? He needed me to tell him it was helpful in order for him to, one, know it was helpful, but two, to then wanna provide more for me. And I just wanted to share that because I had so much shame around it because I think in today's society I don't know. I think some people do judge a woman who is fully financially provided for by a man, and it depends on everybody's relationship.
Amanda Durocher [00:39:25]:
Everybody's relationship's different, so we just can't judge one another for it. Everybody's in a different place.
Kelby Knutt [00:39:30]:
Yeah. Agreed. I mean, if you think about it, like, there's no right or wrong way to do a relationship and things ebb and flow. I might be mostly supported by my partner now, and then who knows in five years, maybe I'm, like, the main breadwinner. And then we go back and forth and we fill these roles for each other. Like, what is needed right now for us? Right? Like Yes. If I were the one making more money, I would absolutely contribute. And then the same goes for, like, household chores, because I think that can be a tough one for some couples.
Kelby Knutt [00:40:06]:
It's like if I'm exhausted, I had a huge day. I saw X amount of clients and I was at my day job and I had to bring my cat to the vet and da da da da da. Kai then will come home and go, don't worry. I'll cook for us and I'll do the dishes. And that doesn't make him, like, feminine. You know, he just, like, picked up the slack because he saw that it was needed because I'm extended and vice versa. Like, I'll do the same where I'll fill in the gaps kind of thing.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:36]:
And even with that just chore example, one way I've even had to soften is that if the chore doesn't get done or we get takeout two nights a week because we're both super busy, like, that's okay. Because, really, with the softening, it's about being with the ebb and flow. Because like you said, things will change along the way, so I find it's just really about learning to go with the flow rather than thinking everything needs to be perfect or done a certain way. It's understanding that life comes up, and if we wanna feel supported, it just might not always look the way, like, we've talked about multiple times, the way we would quote, unquote do it.
Kelby Knutt [00:41:11]:
Right. Yeah. Agreed. I kinda wanna step back to the practical tips for softening, and I wanna mention a couple things. One thing is that we can soften by giving ourself what we need. And I'm still learning, like, moment to moment how to feel into my needs, but I will tell you at a high level, I know that I really enjoy taking a bath. I know that I really enjoy dancing just even on my own. I know that I enjoy sitting out on the patio and reading.
Kelby Knutt [00:41:45]:
So it's like, I have this list of things that I like. And even if in the moment I sometimes will bypass that I need those things, at least I have an idea. Okay. You know, when I do find the time to slow down, here's how I'm gonna fill in that time. So I think that that could be helpful for anybody listening is like, do you have a list, even if it's just on your head of soft activities that you can do?
Amanda Durocher [00:42:12]:
I love that. And I think even when you're first beginning to soften, it's really making time for those activities. Because I know for me, one of the things that helps me soften is music. And so when I go through periods of time where I'm playing the piano or I'm singing, it really helps me to soften. And when I go through times that I'm not, I just miss it. You know what I mean? I know it's but I know it's the thing that will help me, but I think sometimes it's important to prioritize it. You know, it can be so hard in our busy world to prioritize the things that just help us to soften. Like, that's how it feels like, oh, just help us to soften.
Amanda Durocher [00:42:48]:
But truly, I find, especially for me, especially as a creative, the more I soften, the more it really does benefit all areas of my life even if it seems like it wouldn't. Like how you mentioned taking a bath, that helps me so much. And there's times I resist taking a bath because it's, quote, unquote, not productive, but that's the opposite of softening, having that attitude.
Kelby Knutt [00:43:11]:
Yeah. It's funny. It's like it is productive, but not in the way that you might think.
Amanda Durocher [00:43:16]:
Yeah. Exactly. I'm like, relaxing is not productive, but to be my best self, you know, those things help me. And then when I'm that version of myself, I create better. I'm a better partner. I'm a better friend. I'm just a better all around person. So it's funny that that to me isn't productive being a better all around person because I can't show somebody receipts of, like, what I did.
Kelby Knutt [00:43:37]:
Absolutely. I wanna mention one more thing here too about we talked about softening during sex, and even before could be a whole process. I think what I wanna mention that I kind of worked with, I don't know, six months back or something, I noticed how my body was really tense and hard during sex. And I made a point to like intentionally bring in softness, like relaxing my muscles. I'm talking about literally my body. My muscles were tense and I was, like, bracing myself for something. And, you know, again, this has nothing to do with Kai. It's just that hardness showed up in the bedroom, you know, like
Amanda Durocher [00:44:23]:
Yeah.
Kelby Knutt [00:44:23]:
Where I just yeah, I was, like, so rigid, my
Amanda Durocher [00:44:27]:
body. I think that's so relatable. I think so many women struggle with that. I know I can relate to that.
Kelby Knutt [00:44:32]:
It's not pleasant. I mean, you mentioned, like, life feels easier and better when we can soften. Well, so does sex. Trust me. I would notice that sensation becomes heightened when I can relax my muscles.
Amanda Durocher [00:44:45]:
Yes. I like that way of wording it because it's true. It's true. Smiling. I'm like, yes.
Kelby Knutt [00:44:51]:
I feel like that's probably we could do a whole episode on on that. It's kind of its own topic, and yet for me, it is so connected. A lot of our struggles outside of sex show up in sex too. Like, you can work on your life in sex and you'll notice, like, a lot of parallels. But I did wanna mention that if you're gonna start working on softening, maybe bringing in an awareness of how you hold your body, you know, when you're engaged in sexual activity, whatever it is, if it's actual intercourse or foreplay or even just kissing. I mean, like, even just sometimes kissing, I feel, like, tense.
Amanda Durocher [00:45:32]:
Well, I mean, especially in a long term relationship, I think sex is such an emotional experience too. It's physical, but it's emotionally connected. So I find when I'm pushing down emotions, and that is a hardening thing for me. If I'm not just allowing my emotions to flow and come up and processing them as they come up. I tend to harden. And when I'm doing that, then it does impact me sexually. Because, like, Evan will touch me and I'll, like, flinch. Like, I'll be like, don't touch me.
Amanda Durocher [00:45:58]:
And then I'll be like, oh, right. We're supposed to be intimate right now. But it comes out that way. And I just think it is really connected, this idea of softening with sex. And I also find for another practical tip, connecting with Evan, I think you were the one who said to me, like, a whole day out, like, a day date is like foreplay. And I find that to be the case because sometimes Evan works a lot. So sometimes it does take quality time for me to soften back into the relationship to feel safe, and then that leads to a better sex life. So I think sometimes too, in order to soften, it just might be some quality time between you and your lover.
Kelby Knutt [00:46:34]:
Yeah. It could make such a big difference. I think as women, even if we really enjoy sex a lot, you know, a lot of us still want that lead up and that kind of feeling of safety before. I know that I do. And Kai, once again, like saving the day, there was a time where we were gonna have sex and then I think he could sense that I was tense. So he gave me like a shoulder massage for like ten minutes. And it was so great. I was like, just that alone was what I needed that time of like, Hey, we can be intimate and it doesn't have to be full on sex.
Kelby Knutt [00:47:15]:
It can be just like, yeah, quality time, but also touch and connecting. And that allows us as women and the feminine to open up to the masculine and to being penetrated for lack of a better word. Like, we're opening up to that. Right? Whether you have sex or not. It's just that sense of you're safe and you are worthy of being connected with. That's a huge softening.
Amanda Durocher [00:47:44]:
I actually love that you mentioned that because if anybody else is a sexual violence survivor, massages was one of the things that really, really helped me on my healing journey. And then reclaiming my relationship with sex was that I actually needed that for a really long time. I just needed to get massages in different parts of my body. Sometimes it was just my feet. And then the more I just started to soften or Evan and I were just having that moment, it helped me to relax and then want to have intimacy, but it did really, really help. So I love that you found that the massage helped too because I think there's something to it. I mean, massages help us to release tension too. So
Kelby Knutt [00:48:20]:
Yeah. Right? It's not just a physical thing too. It's, like, mental that we're being attended to. There's a really good book called the anatomy of Women's Arousal. Amazing book. And she talks about how the feminine needs time to open up like a flower. I use the flower analogy a lot in our podcast. It's so good though because it's like, if you're like this hard little closed up flower and then somebody just comes along and they're just like, alright.
Kelby Knutt [00:48:52]:
Let's do this. You know, whether it's sex or connecting or having a relationship, it's hard. It just doesn't feel natural. But if you're given time to let yourself open up and hopefully your partner can help you with that, it just makes everything feel better emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually.
Amanda Durocher [00:49:15]:
Yes. A %. I love the flower analogy too. I think it really sums it up because I think we're always, like, closing into a little bud and opening up. You know? So I think it's a beautiful visual. Mhmm. I can see it.
Kelby Knutt [00:49:27]:
Yeah. I like it too. It's like nothing is forced. A flower just opens up.
Amanda Durocher [00:49:32]:
I like how you said natural too because I actually think the feminine is naturally open. And we live in a world where we have to have so many boundaries in different places, but it's our nature to be open. And so as we've discussed throughout this episode, it's finding ways to learn to open up in safe spaces. Because, unfortunately, in the world we live in, we can't go out super open. I remember also in my softening process that I was like, I'm gonna be open everywhere. Oh my gosh. This is me in my state of being. I wasn't used to leaving the house at that time.
Amanda Durocher [00:50:05]:
I'm gonna be honest. So I started leaving the house, and I was, like, super open. I was just crying everywhere in public. And that wasn't right either. So it's like we said, it's really about the balance as well.
Kelby Knutt [00:50:15]:
Yeah. We can be open and willing to receive and then choose what we receive too. So that's the beautiful part. Like, the way I saw it described in that book, I just mentioned women's anatomy of arousal is actually what it's called. Women's anatomy of arousal. Amazing book. She talks about how the feminine invites the masculine in. And so in that sense, she gets to choose what comes into her world, you know, pun intended, but also not.
Kelby Knutt [00:50:46]:
She gets that freedom and that power. That's the feminine power. Like, I choose to open up to you so that you can experience the beauty of the feminine and so that I can experience the beauty of the masculine too. Right?
Amanda Durocher [00:51:00]:
Yes. I love that. I feel like that's a beautiful way to end this. Yeah. Agreed. I'm like mic dropped.
Kelby Knutt [00:51:07]:
Yeah. I hope that was helpful to anybody who feels like I used to that everything is hard and I still feel that waste of time. So but, yeah, life doesn't have to be hard all the time. You know, we can do things within ourself and with our partner to create this sense of ease and flow and softness.
Amanda Durocher [00:51:28]:
Yes. And for me, it's just funny because we were talking about this before the episode, but for me, it's the feeling of being unsupported. And so if anybody else relates to that, the feeling of unsupported is is part of that hyper independence. And the more I allow support in, the more I can soften and the more like we've said throughout the episode, it just really has this ripple effect on all areas of my life. Like, my relationship with Evan, but also all my relationships, and also it leads into my work, which is a beautiful
Kelby Knutt [00:51:57]:
thing. Oh, yeah. Definitely.
Amanda Durocher [00:52:00]:
Well, thank you so much for joining us for this episode and this conversation on softening in our relationships. If you are interested in connecting with us and asking questions or suggesting topics, you can find us at love under the scope on Instagram, or you can email us at loveunderthescope@gmail.com.
Kelby Knutt [00:52:20]:
We'll see you next time.
Amanda Durocher [00:52:21]:
Where we will continue to look at love under the scope.
Kelby Knutt [00:52:28]:
Love Under the Scope is a new view advice production. Theme music by Tyler Knutt. The podcast is produced by Amanda Durocher. Love under the scope.
