117: “good” vs “bad” therapy: How to find a good therapist with Katie Landrum

Travel

Jan 15

In this episode, I chat with mental health counselor Katie Landrum, to discuss our personal experiences with “good” and “bad” therapy. We discuss what makes therapy beneficial, and also what we have found harmful throughout our own experiences. We emphasize the importance of finding a therapist who is the right fit, offers a safe space, and is non-judgemental. Katie provides us with a list of questions you can use when interviewing a therapist. We also discuss how to prepare for your first session if you have never been ro therapy and what we believe the most important thing to remember is when beginning your therapy journey.

LISTEN ON SPOTIFY

LISTEN ON APPLE

LISTEN ON OTHER CHANNEL

Recommended Episodes 🎙️

Check Out the Recommended Questions for Interviewing a Therapist

Questions to Ask When Interviewing a Therapist (Updated Question List from Episode Coming Soon!)

Learn More About Katie Landrum:

Katie Landrum became a mental health counselor originally in New York in 2014 and then moved back to Central Florida where she is from and has been practicing there since 2016. She has also been certified as a Behavior Analyst for 11 years. She specializes in anxiety, depression, ADHD, autism, and women's mental health. She is particularly passionate about working with female clients. On the more personal side, she is also a certified yoga teacher, and she loves doing anything creative, and working on anything that fosters her own self growth.

Timestamps ⏱️

Introduction: 00:15
Conversation with Katie: 2:25
Outro: 40:14

Have you followed and left a review for New View Advice?

Let me know what you think of the podcast! Podcast followers and ratings help bring new listeners to the show, as well as help me to continue creating content. So if you enjoyed the show, I’d love to ask you to follow and leave a rating on your podcasting platform by:

Head to New View Advice on Apple or Spotify
Click Follow on your podcasting platform
Scroll down (or when promoted) click the 5 star rating!

Amanda Durocher [00:00:01]:
Welcome to NewView Advice. I'm your host, Amanda Durocher, and I invite you to join me here each week as I offer advice on how to move through whatever problem or trauma is holding you back from living life to the fullest. Let's get started. Hey, beautiful soul. Welcome to new view advice. My name is Amanda Durocher. And if you are new here, this is a healing centered advice podcast where I offer guidance for the healing journey. I do not believe I have all the answers you seek.
Amanda Durocher [00:00:25]:
I believe you have all the answers. You just may need a new view and a little help along the way. Thank you so much for joining us for today's episode. Today, we are discussing good therapy versus bad therapy. And what we really mean by that is helpful therapy versus unhelpful therapy and how to intentionally find a therapist. So I am so excited for today's conversation. Today, I have a special guest on the podcast, Katie Landrum, and we both discuss personal experiences with therapists who were unhelpful, honestly harmful, and I consider bad therapists, as well as discussing different questions you can ask when interviewing a therapist and how to best prepare for your 1st therapy session if you've never been to therapy before. So as I mentioned, today's guest is Katie Landrum.
Amanda Durocher [00:01:03]:
And Katie Landrum is a mental health counselor, and she originally became a mental health counselor in New York in 2014 and then moved back to Central Florida where she is originally from and has been practicing there since 2016. She is also certified as a behavior analyst for 11 years. She specializes in anxiety, depression, ADHD, autism, and women's mental health, and she is particularly passionate about working with female clients. In her personal life, she's a certified yoga teacher. She loves doing anything creative and working on anything that fosters her own self growth. So that's a bit about Katie, and you'll learn more about Katie throughout the episode. And I am so excited for this conversation. I really enjoyed having this conversation, and I really hope you enjoy listening to it.
Amanda Durocher [00:01:41]:
And I hope you learn something new in this episode as well. And before we jump in, I wanna say here upfront that if when you're listening to this episode, you have follow-up questions, please send them my way at contact at newviewadvice.com, or you can fill out the ask a question form in the show notes at newviewadvice.com/117. I'd love to have Katie on the podcast again to continue this conversation about therapy because I think therapy can be so helpful along the healing journey, but, unfortunately, it can also be really harmful as well. So I think it's really important to be intentional with your journey of therapy and to find a therapist that is a good fit. And we spend a lot of time talking about how to find a therapist that is a good fit throughout this episode. So with that, let's jump on into today's conversation about therapy. Thank you for coming on the podcast as a guest. I'm so excited.
Amanda Durocher [00:02:28]:
Today, we have Katie on the podcast. Katie's a therapist, and she actually reached out to me after I had talked about a few bad therapy experiences on the podcast. And we decided to do an episode talking about bad therapy versus good therapy and how to find a good therapist. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Katie. I was hoping you could tell everybody a little bit about yourself.
Katie Landrum [00:02:47]:
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here, and collaborate with you. I've reflected on this a little bit, how I got into therapy in the first place. I did have a difficult childhood growing up, so a lot of trauma in my childhood, alcoholic, abusive father. We grew up in a really violent neighborhood, so there was a lot of anxiety about that. And mental health was not talked about in my family, like so many families, but it was, like, a very emotionally avoidant family. We didn't do counseling. There was no mental health talk growing up.
Katie Landrum [00:03:23]:
And then I went into college not knowing what I wanted to do. I was a 1st generation college student, so I really thought I would end up in retail or something. I didn't have, like, big ambitions or anything. And then I started getting into psychology classes, and I think that resonated with me because it made sense. It made me make sense. So I kinda kept going with psychology classes, and it was really, I think, a journey of self growth and self awareness. And I had this drive to bring that to other people and kind of I think it was a lot of, like, inner child healing for myself too because I wanted to be able to heal other people the way that my inner child didn't get healed. So I think that's how I kinda came into mental health counseling.
Amanda Durocher [00:04:09]:
I love that. How long have you been a therapist for?
Katie Landrum [00:04:12]:
It's been since 2014. I was originally licensed in New York, and then I moved back to Florida where I'm from, and I got licensed here in 2016. Because in the United States, you have to get license, like, in every state right now.
Amanda Durocher [00:04:26]:
So you are a therapist. Do you also have a therapist?
Katie Landrum [00:04:31]:
Yes. Yeah. And I've I've had therapy several times in my life. It was like a requirement in the program. And then at different times in my life, I've gone to therapy.
Amanda Durocher [00:04:40]:
We had connected over having bad therapy experiences. Could you tell us about a therapy experience that you found not so helpful? Was it your first experience or a later experience?
Katie Landrum [00:04:50]:
So I've had several that have not been helpful. I think the one that resonates with me right now, and it's probably just because it was the most recent, was when I found out that I was unexpectedly pregnant, and I, you know, had a 2 year old and an 8 month old at the time, and I was devastated to find out that I was pregnant. My other pregnancies have been really difficult. So I went into that session, and this was a therapist that I had been seeing, a male therapist who indicated that he was not religious. We had never talked about religion. So I go into that session just crying. Like, I'm 3 week pregnant, just took the test, and I was a mess. And I was very ambivalent about the pregnancy.
Katie Landrum [00:05:35]:
I just wanted a safe space to, like, discuss that ambivalence because a lot of times in our culture, you get pregnant, and it's a blessing, and no one wants to talk about it being anything other than a blessing. So I go into that session, and it comes out that he's Catholic. He was an altar server, and then just a lot of, like, pressure. Like, he was forcing his own agenda on me. Like, I can tell you're really excited about this pregnancy deep down. This baby is so lucky to have you. So it wasn't like the focus was on my mental health at all. It was like this ball of cells inside of me was the main focus.
Katie Landrum [00:06:15]:
And, yeah, for someone who was, like, looking for that safe space to air out all my feelings about it, I wasn't given.
Amanda Durocher [00:06:22]:
Yeah. How did it feel to afterwards, like, when you went for a safe space and you were met with what sounds kinda like a hostile space?
Katie Landrum [00:06:30]:
Yeah. It felt judged, and you shouldn't feel judged going to therapy. It's like the one place you shouldn't feel that. And then being a therapist, I'm kind of critical, like, oh, he shouldn't have done that. So, yeah, I had stopped with him at that point, but it felt like kind of like an icky feeling. Like, it felt gross.
Amanda Durocher [00:06:50]:
Yeah. I can relate to that gross feeling. And I think it's important to note that you are a therapist and you still found yourself in a situation with, like, what I would consider a bad therapist. And I think that's important to note because I think it's so hard to know from somebody's bio if they're gonna be a good fit for you or not. And I think that can be really discouraging for people who do go have those bad experiences. For me, I've talked about them on the podcast, but the most notable was the woman who told me I should play out rape fantasies when I went to her for help with repressed memories. I've been thinking about it recently too. It would be one thing if I went to her and I said, hey, lady.
Amanda Durocher [00:07:29]:
I'm having these rape fantasies. And we began the conversation there. Yeah. But instead, I went to her and was like, I was raped as a child, and I forgot this for 15 years. And I am devastated. I am broken. I can't even look at myself in the mirror without feeling disgusted. What do I do? And her response was, you and your partner should play out rape fantasies.
Amanda Durocher [00:07:52]:
It's like you go there for the safe space. Right? Like, I went there being, like, I'm disgusted when I look in the mirror. And to be met with something so so off the mark, it was just so clear she didn't understand sexual trauma at all. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that for me, I was a lot younger at the time. It was, like, almost 10 years ago where I actually continued seeing her until she said to me, why are we still talking about this? You should be over this by now.
Katie Landrum [00:08:17]:
Oh, wow. Yeah. I was glad to ask if you kept seeing her after that.
Amanda Durocher [00:08:21]:
I did. I was so broken at the time. I was desperate for somebody to have the answers, which is one of the things I think sort of scary about therapy is that oftentimes people who seek out therapy, some of the people. Right? It's like everybody's on different therapy journey, but some people are so desperate for help. And that's why I think that safety is so important that you mentioned that the creating of a safe space because, yeah, it's just I was in such a low place and I really wanted her to have the answers. Answers. She so did not have the answers. Not sorry.
Katie Landrum [00:08:51]:
And I think it's hard too when you go into therapy and then you tell them your whole story. It's hard to switch after that point. Even if you feel like it's not a good fit, it's like you have all this emotional investment now because it's hard to swap and then tell your story again, especially when there is a lot of trauma. So I think some people stay too long when they know there's a better fit, just like a relationship.
Amanda Durocher [00:09:16]:
A 100%. That's a great comparison. It's really your therapist is like it's like being in another relationship. It's a different dynamic, obviously, but it is like a relationship. And I've definitely stayed with therapists too long. I was reflecting on that actually beforehand, and I had one therapist who she was helpful in a lot of ways, but she was the type of person who obviously studied trauma. She must have experienced some trauma. I think most therapists have, but she would tell me I was wrong sometimes when I was going through my process of, like, specifically repressed memories.
Amanda Durocher [00:09:46]:
She'd be like, I don't think it works like that. And that was devastating for me because they would really just send me into a spiral of, like, maybe I am wrong because going through the process of repressed memories was one of the most confusing processes of my life. And I definitely stayed with her too long, I guess, is what I'm trying to say because she knew my whole life story. And some things she said were helpful. So it took me a while to be like, the good isn't outweighing the unhelpfulness here, but that took time.
Katie Landrum [00:10:12]:
Yeah. I had one like that too. She was the one who did the accelerated resolution therapy. So that's like EMDR where it's eye movement. And some of that was really helpful, but I'm not very good at visualizing, and a lot of that has to do with visualizing and, like, feeling positive feelings in your body, and I couldn't quite connect to that. And I felt like she thought I was being difficult when she was like, did anything move or change during that? And I was like, well, it's still neutral and it wasn't positive. And she would be like, oh, oh, okay. And she acted like I was being difficult.
Katie Landrum [00:10:51]:
And then I think there was me striving to, like, I wanted her to like me.
Amanda Durocher [00:10:56]:
Yes.
Katie Landrum [00:10:56]:
So then it became about that almost like, I swear I'm not being difficult. I'm really trying. So, yeah, there was that dynamic where it was like, I think I'm likable. Will you like me? And what's wrong with me if my therapist doesn't like me?
Amanda Durocher [00:11:11]:
Yeah. I love that you say that because I feel like it's so common. Because with the woman I mentioned, I wanted her to like me too, and she didn't love that I did new view advice. She was kind of somebody who was like, well, you're not a therapist. You shouldn't be talking about trauma. We're like, I'm a person who's like, I'm a survivor of trauma. I bring a different point of view. I think it's important that I talk about trauma.
Amanda Durocher [00:11:31]:
But she didn't like it. And I was playing out the mother wound is what I figured out looking back. I wanted her approval so bad that I kept going back and trying to convince her that new view advice was a good thing. And she kept, like, downplaying it and kept being, like, I don't know if you should do that. Like, she wouldn't even say it so bluntly. It was just, like, little underhanded remarks about it. And it's just funny looking back because I was like, oh, yeah. I was playing out the mother wounds with my therapist, which I wanted to note because I think it's common to play out those parental woundings with a therapist.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:03]:
Do you think so?
Katie Landrum [00:12:04]:
Yeah. I agree. I think that happens a lot.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:07]:
Yeah. And I think it's normal. I think it's just something to remain aware of, like, when starting therapy that if you're feeling those ways, it might be more of like a a childhood wounding than needing your therapist's approval, if that makes sense.
Katie Landrum [00:12:19]:
Yeah. But I think therapy is meant to, again, give you that safe space and that comfort and that it's, like, acceptance no matter what. So I think it should be a safe space to carry those out and work through them. And then I think when you're met with the judgment is when there's difficulty and therapy becomes almost more harmful and helpful. Difficulty and therapy becomes almost more harmful and helpful.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:42]:
Yeah. I think that's important to note because I did wanna talk about good therapists too, because I do think there's good therapists. I've worked with a lot of good therapists. And I think what you just said is such a key to helpful and healing therapy, like therapy that really moves you forward
Katie Landrum [00:12:57]:
Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:12:58]:
And brings you help with what you're working through is you said safety, helping you work through those wounds in a safe and supportive and compassionate environment.
Katie Landrum [00:13:06]:
Yeah. I mean, I hope there's a therapist because I'm a therapist, and I hope that I'm more helpful. And I've had good experiences too.
Amanda Durocher [00:13:14]:
Yeah. What is something that you can remember from one of your therapy experiences that you're like, that was so helpful or that, like, one of your favorite therapists you've had? What was it about them?
Katie Landrum [00:13:24]:
Probably their demeanor, just like being open. Maybe for me, I I think I liked a little bit more of a directive therapist that provided more structure in the therapy session. It was my experiences that I really thought were beneficial with, like, when I was going through my own program and kind of forced to seek out therapy to get through the program. I had just worked with 1 woman, and she was just the sweetest, most soft spoken. Like, you couldn't find a safer type of environment. And up until then, I really hadn't talked about my past or my childhood. So I think that was just really healing for me, like, having that. And that was, you know, in my mid twenties.
Amanda Durocher [00:14:11]:
Yeah. For me, I think the most important thing as I reflected on it was nonjudgmental. Just playing it. And I think at this point, I would leave any therapist, like, the second I felt judgment because I think that there's therapists for different times in our life. I've gone through many therapists, and I change because I change and they change. But I think that finding a nonjudgmental person is, like, what I found to be the most healing thing for me because the world is very judgmental. And safety is built off of, like, nonjudgment and being able to be yourself and to make mistakes. You know?
Katie Landrum [00:14:44]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think nonjudgmental is really important.
Amanda Durocher [00:14:47]:
Yeah. My current therapist is nonjudgmental, and she does challenge me, but that's like a good thing. You know, she asks me questions that make me think deeper and make me open my perspective. I find that really important. But I also did have another therapist in the fall who's no longer a therapist. She was a big cheerleader, and I needed that at the time. I don't need that forever, but it was nice to have actually just a hype man. Like, I had never had that before.
Amanda Durocher [00:15:10]:
I'd never had anybody which is like, you're amazing. You're a rock star. And I was like, what? That was like it was so healing for my heart to have somebody like that. They were they're so different. I have, like, I had one who challenged me and one who cheerleaded me. At the same time, I kinda miss the cheerleader when with the one who challenges me. I'm like, oh, where's, like, my cheerleader? But, yeah, I just think it's important to note that there might be different people for different times in your life.
Katie Landrum [00:15:31]:
I think so. I think I tend to like more the challenging because I feel like when I just get the validation, I'm like, this is nice, but this isn't moving me forward. I always want growth. I want you to hold me accountable, especially because a lot of times I know the strategies, but just because I know the strategy doesn't mean that I'm perfect at implementing them. So I like that accountability piece with therapy.
Amanda Durocher [00:15:56]:
Yeah. I like that part too. And that leads me to, what do you think about the importance of finding a therapist who's a good match and how do you find a therapist that's a good match for you?
Katie Landrum [00:16:06]:
Yeah. So this was one of the ones that brought me to you because you had talked about interviewing your therapist and I loved that idea. So I think that's a really big part of finding a good therapist and finding a good match. So do you wanna talk through some of those questions?
Amanda Durocher [00:16:24]:
Yeah. That'd be I think that'd be really helpful because I think it's important to note for people here. If you have never had a therapist or you've just fallen into therapy, that you can actually take more control of the process than you realize. And I think that it's important to note that the therapist and you, it's forming relationships, so you're allowed to ask questions. You know, like, you go in for your first therapy, they ask you a million questions.
Katie Landrum [00:16:46]:
Mhmm.
Amanda Durocher [00:16:46]:
You're allowed to ask questions as well. So I think sharing some questions that you think are helpful would be super helpful for everyone.
Katie Landrum [00:16:53]:
Yeah. It's funny because I always open my intakes with that space. Like, have you been to therapy before? And let's take a few minutes. Like, you asked me questions. Do you have any question? 2 people have asked me question.
Amanda Durocher [00:17:07]:
Wow.
Katie Landrum [00:17:07]:
At 11 years of counseling.
Amanda Durocher [00:17:10]:
Wow. Yeah. That's interesting you say that because I actually find people get really surprised when I have questions. Mhmm. Like, I'm always like, what kind of practices do you use? Like, what's your therapy style? Do you have experience with this? It tells me a lot about a therapist I'm interviewing with how they can respond when I have questions. Because I can tell some people are, like, really turned off by me having questions, and I'm like, that's already a hard no. But it's helpful upfront for me to see that. So even just me asking questions is like a barometer for me to know if it's gonna be a safe space upfront too, which is why I think it's important to take a bit of control of the process even though it can be scary.
Katie Landrum [00:17:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think you're gonna find out quick, like, if they have that judgmentalness or not when you start asking questions.
Amanda Durocher [00:17:53]:
Yeah.
Katie Landrum [00:17:54]:
So the first one I had is what experiences do you have with my specific concern?
Amanda Durocher [00:17:59]:
Yeah. I a 100% think that's hands down the most important question to
Katie Landrum [00:18:04]:
ask. Yeah. Especially if it's something unique or not common. Then I have, what strategies would you use for my specific issue, or how do you think the course of treatment may look for someone with my concerns? And I think any therapist who has been doing therapy for a while, like, if you're coming with anxiety, depression, trauma, we have a general idea of how we would tackle that. So that should be a question that therapists could answer pretty easily. I think that as a client, you would get a good idea of how therapy might look.
Amanda Durocher [00:18:39]:
Yeah. That was gonna be my question is if, if somebody had questions about what you said, like the plan. Like, say you were interviewing a therapist and somebody threw out a lot of really therapy terms like CBT and EMDR, but you didn't know what those meant. Would you feel comfortable if somebody was to ask you, like, what those words meant?
Katie Landrum [00:18:56]:
If a client asked me?
Amanda Durocher [00:18:57]:
Yeah.
Katie Landrum [00:18:58]:
Yeah. I would definitely feel comfortable. I would explain that to some
Amanda Durocher [00:19:02]:
I know it seems so basic, but I really think people need to know it's okay, like, if you don't understand what a word means to ask what that word means. You know, I worked with people 1 on 1 sometimes, and I would throw some terms around, and it would take, like, 3 sessions for somebody to ask me what something meant. And I was like, oh my gosh. I wish you had asked me, like, right away, like, right off the bat. But I think it can be really intimidating when you're talking to somebody who sounds really intelligent and really educated to ask them to explain it. But I think I just wanted to hear a therapist say, yes. You can ask me what those words mean because I think it's helpful to understand what these different therapy techniques are if somebody's, like, using therapy terms, if that makes sense.
Katie Landrum [00:19:39]:
Yeah. Even in sessions, I think you need to if you don't understand something, say it because this is your time. Like, you're in control of this.
Amanda Durocher [00:19:48]:
Yeah. And I really wanna emphasize that too that it's okay if you don't understand something to ask questions. And if somebody judges you in that moment for not knowing it, like, note it as a red flag. Yeah. It's okay to note things as red flags. For people to find a good match, it's important to be able to be especially when you're dealing with mental health, trauma, emotional health, to be able to be fully yourself in that moment because so much of our lives, I think, we spend kinda putting on a persona or not admitting how we feel or trying to run from our feelings. That to me, good therapy has to be a place where you can just be a 100% you, like the messy, the ugly. For me, it's often the arrogant.
Amanda Durocher [00:20:28]:
Like, I bring the arrogance to therapy. And my therapist, like, she humbles me. I keep my arrogance down. I like almost like beat it up. I punish it. But therapy is like the one place I can go and be like, alright. You know, and my therapist is always like, you're judging people. But it's so important for me to have like an outlet for that and not to have somebody who judges me for that, if that makes sense.
Amanda Durocher [00:20:48]:
Yeah. I think it's important to just be able to be fully yourself, which involves asking questions if you don't know what something means.
Katie Landrum [00:20:54]:
Yeah. And I think it's good practice for communicating outside of therapy too, because I don't think we've learned communication skills that well growing up most of us. So I think if you're able to advocate for yourself or question things in therapy, that's great to start practicing there in what should be a safe space and bring that eventually out to your real life. Maybe you don't wanna bring your arrogance, but you could keep that there.
Amanda Durocher [00:21:22]:
I I mute that. I mute that. I sent it. I like, I could go on a whole thing about Arion's. But with the communication, yeah, I think that people don't really learn how to communicate. So I think that's a great point that I think therapy is a great place to learn how to communicate and have hard conversations. Because for someone, it might be hard to voice if they have a question or voice a hard feeling, and learning to have that with your therapist is a great step to then learning how to have that with your partner or at work or in friendship. So I think it's important to be able to learn how to communicate.
Katie Landrum [00:21:53]:
Especially for women. And Yes. I love my female clients. I prefer to work with women. So I think especially with women, we tend to not advocate for ourselves or question things or speak up as much as we could or should. So I love offering a place for that too in therapy.
Amanda Durocher [00:22:11]:
Yeah. I think it's important.
Katie Landrum [00:22:13]:
Alright. Another question would be, how do you handle cultural competency and diversity? Another one that I put, how do you typically structure a session? And I put this just reflecting on my different clients. The approach that I need to use has to be flexible with my clients between directive and client led. So if one of those is more important to you, like, if you get uncomfortable with silences or if you need a therapist to structure a session more, then you wanna know, like, how they structure a session and what kind of approach they have in a session. Because I have my clients who can, like, talk the whole time, and then I have my clients that just show up. They don't bring anything to an ongoing session. They're like, I'm here. What are you gonna ask me? So as a therapist, sometimes that's difficult to go back and forth with.
Katie Landrum [00:23:04]:
But I think as a client, like, kind of asking a therapist which way or if they can be flexible with that would be a good idea.
Amanda Durocher [00:23:13]:
I think that's a great question because I'm thinking about I used to have this therapist who would she, like, didn't say anything during our sessions, and I loved it. Like, we would sit in the silence, and she would let me talk in circles. It'd be like this 45 minutes of me just, like, talking to myself. And then by the end, I was like, oh, yeah. Okay. I got that. Thanks. And I'd like walk out.
Amanda Durocher [00:23:30]:
And I recommended her to a few people. And people are like, what who is this woman that you recommended me to? Because they wanted something much more guided and led. And I was like, oh, not everybody wants to just talk to themselves for an hour. That wasn't my first therapist, but it was my first adult therapist in Boston. And then when I moved to LA, I had a therapist who just talked to me the whole time. And I was shocked. I was like, oh my gosh, therapy is not what I thought it was. This woman thinks she has all the answers for me.
Amanda Durocher [00:23:56]:
So I think that's a great question because I do think it's something that differs between therapists is Yeah. Their approach and their technique.
Katie Landrum [00:24:03]:
Yeah. And some clients, like, hate therapeutic silence. They just do not like that. And some therapists will, like, force it on the brand, I think.
Amanda Durocher [00:24:13]:
Yeah. I think the one I had probably did force it on the people who I recommended who didn't like it. But you loved it. I loved it. I loved it. I like to hear myself talk, I guess. But, yeah, I think that's good to note. And I think it's notes to you as a good therapist that you're able to show up differently for each client because I do think that that's important because no person is the same.
Amanda Durocher [00:24:34]:
So everybody's gonna need a little bit of a different style, I think. Do you find that to be true? Everybody needs a little bit of something different.
Katie Landrum [00:24:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. There's, like, a wide range. Even with my clients right now, there's some that I know I have to prep more for this session because I know that they might not come with any theme for the week or anything necessarily to talk about. So there is, like, a wide variety of what a different session might look like.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:01]:
I think that's nice to hear too that you take the time to think about each of your individual clients.
Katie Landrum [00:25:06]:
Yeah. I try.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:07]:
Yeah. I think that's a great quality. I don't think all therapists do, so I think that's that's nice.
Katie Landrum [00:25:12]:
Yeah. So some of my feedback about bad therapists have been from my clients, and I have gotten feedback from clients. Like, I didn't wanna try therapy before because I would see this therapist, and she would, like, complain the whole time because I was, like, her 11th session for the day, or she wouldn't remember things about me. Like, oh my gosh. I didn't realize all this was happening.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:36]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like, thoughts are flying through my head of bad therapist. I had one therapist when I was in LA where we did sessions, like, out of her studio apartment. Wow. And when I would show up, she was just never ready. Like, she was always like, I just got out of the shower. You have to wait in the lobby.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:51]:
Like, it was like, it's one thing to do it out of your apartment.
Katie Landrum [00:25:53]:
Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:53]:
It's a whole another to, like, never be prepared.
Katie Landrum [00:25:57]:
Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:25:57]:
Yeah. It was like she never wrote me in her calendar, which, you know, when you, like, feel like you're already too much to show up at your therapist's house and they're, like, are never ready for you and they're, like, always stressed that you're there. For me, that, like, really triggered that feeling too much thing where I was like, I'm too much to even be here, and that was difficult.
Katie Landrum [00:26:15]:
Yeah. I've got a lot about that. I had another client report that she had a therapist who was, like, impaired during the session, like, had taken medication that she shouldn't have. And I thought about that exactly. Like, what's the message that people are receiving being a client who's already fragile or vulnerable, and then you're showing up and the message that you're receiving from a therapist is like, you're not worth their time either, or you're not worth their ability to be present for you. You're the 11th client of the day, and they're telling you that. So that was kind of like what led me to reach out to you originally too, because that hurts me that people are getting that message.
Amanda Durocher [00:26:56]:
Yeah. That's made me think about I used to do 1 on 1 sessions and a lot of people would come to me because they were like, I tried therapy and that didn't work. But one of the things I heard over and over again was because I've worked with people who have cheated or been cheated on. And with people who have cheated, a lot of judgment from the therapist, like, right off the bat. And that one also breaks my heart because it's like somebody's going for help, meaning that they're looking to change. They're already aware that their action hurts somebody. That's what I found with the people who came to me who cheated in our relationship. They were already aware.
Amanda Durocher [00:27:29]:
And then to come into like a therapy environment and just to be scolded, it's just not helpful. It just sends the message again. Like you're saying, like, what message do people get? Like the message that, like, I'm a horrible person. Mhmm. And I think that that's just unhelpful. I find with therapy, we want to learn how to move forward from mistakes we've made or from the judgments we have or how to let go of the past. So to be scolded or reminded of these wounds can be really painful and unhelpful. Definitely.
Amanda Durocher [00:27:59]:
Do you have any other questions?
Katie Landrum [00:28:01]:
Yeah. I have 2 more. What happens if I feel like therapy isn't working? And kind of the same theme would be how will we decide on goals and how will we evaluate progress? So kind of upfront having that conversation, like, how do I approach this with you if it isn't working? I think it's a good question for clients to just set the foundation of, like, I can have this conversation if it comes up.
Amanda Durocher [00:28:28]:
Yeah. I think that's a good one too because I think as we've talked about before, seeing how the therapist even is able to respond to that will tell you a lot in the moment.
Katie Landrum [00:28:36]:
Yeah. That's all my questions.
Amanda Durocher [00:28:38]:
The only other question I want to add in here too is I always like to ask if there's a sliding scale rate if you are somebody who is struggling financially. I have found as a rape survivor that all my money has gone to healing. Like, all my money. I laugh about it, but some days I'm like, oh my gosh. This is like an epidemic that, like, I'm poor because this happened to me. Yeah. I think it's important to ask if there's a sliding scale rate if you are looking for help financially because some therapists offer it, some don't. It's just worth asking if it is something that you need help
Katie Landrum [00:29:11]:
with at the time.
Amanda Durocher [00:29:12]:
I think that is worth asking any therapist because I find a lot of them do have sliding scale rates. So it can just be a helpful thing to ask because I didn't always know I could ask that. And once I started asking if people are very honest about if they do or if they don't, and it's not personal in any way. It's another one of those hard conversations talking about money, but I find it's another great place to practice that skill as well.
Katie Landrum [00:29:35]:
Yeah. I agree. I actually had that conversation with a coworker yesterday because she was going back into therapy, and the therapist increased the price from, like, 90 to a 110. And the therapist said, is that okay? And my coworker was like, what do I say? And I was like, say, like, no. You can't do that right now. And I asked if she can honor the rate she asked. Is it okay? Mhmm. So it would be good practice for you to advocate for yourself and say, like, I can't afford that.
Katie Landrum [00:30:06]:
Would you be able to honor that original rate that I was at? Or, like, a slight increase that isn't the full increase.
Amanda Durocher [00:30:15]:
Yeah. Exactly. I think so too. I've had that happen at the end of the year. A therapy place will raise their prices and I'll be like, I can't afford your new price. And they're like, okay. Yeah. We can keep the original price.
Amanda Durocher [00:30:25]:
That's usually how it goes. So I think it's just worth asking. Because like you said, maybe there's even a middle ground that can be met. But you don't know unless you ask.
Katie Landrum [00:30:34]:
Such a great question.
Amanda Durocher [00:30:35]:
So I also wanted to ask you, what are some things people can think about before going into therapy?
Katie Landrum [00:30:40]:
Yeah. Familiarizing yourself with the different treatment modalities, I think, is a good thing to start with. So we had talked about those letters, you know, EMDR, CBT. I practice ACT, which is acceptance and commitment therapy. So I think just looking into those different modalities to see maybe what you might be comfortable with. Because if the therapist just does the eye movement therapy and you're not comfortable doing that or you don't think it's gonna benefit you, like, don't go to that therapist. Or those are people that you could weed out, like, just going through bios. I think deciding whether you look at therapy, like, solution focused versus long term is also something to think about because some people just want, like, 6 to 12 sessions.
Katie Landrum [00:31:29]:
I wanna get over a breakup, while other people want, like, I want self awareness. I want self growth. I look at this, like, I wanna be in it for years. So deciding where you are at on that spectrum.
Amanda Durocher [00:31:42]:
I think that's a great one. I've never thought about that because I'm like, I'm the long haul girl. I'm like, oh, you're with me until until I decide no. So that's a that's a good one.
Katie Landrum [00:31:50]:
Yeah. And then this one kinda brought me back to your podcast. If you have something that works for you, can it be incorporated, and are they willing to incorporate it? So I told you I do have a client that we will listen to your episodes, or I'll listen to an episode and I'll message her and be like, hey. Listen to this for next week. Or she'll be like, hey. I listened to this one. Can we talk about it? I think, like, self help books, podcasts, different things can all contribute to self awareness and self growth. And if something's working, ask if they'll be willing to use that.
Amanda Durocher [00:32:27]:
That warms my heart, just so you know. I never know. I'm always like, am I speaking into a void? Is anybody out there listening? So it warms my heart to know that. Thank you.
Katie Landrum [00:32:35]:
Yeah. Because I don't think it just has to be therapy. I think it's anything that pushes you forward.
Amanda Durocher [00:32:40]:
Yeah. I love that mindset.
Katie Landrum [00:32:42]:
Yes. So considering factors like gender, culture, and in person versus virtual visits, I think would be something to take into account before you start looking for it, Erica. The last one I have is don't feel pressured to provide all the detail in an intake because that's, I think, setting people up for, like, staying too long. I don't think you have to go into an intake with a new therapist and tell them all your trauma. I think you can just tell how much you you want to tell or just leave it at trauma when you get to those questions. And I've had clients do that. 1 in particular that I can think of, we did the intake and anything like, why are you here? Like, I wanna discuss some trauma. Okay.
Katie Landrum [00:33:28]:
Let's move on because I knew she wasn't comfortable telling me everything, and she didn't know me. She doesn't have to. So not feeling that pressure.
Amanda Durocher [00:33:37]:
I think that's great advice. I've definitely had the moment where I tell my whole story, and I just see somebody's face go from, like, they think they're qualified to just showing me that they're not they're not ready for Amanda. There's a lot here. There's a lot to unpack in this person, but that always feels really hard. But the truth is they might just think, oh my gosh, she just said so much at once. You know what I mean? It might not even be that they're not actually capable. It's just that I gave them my entire life story in one moment. And the truth is we're never gonna talk about my entire life story in one session.
Amanda Durocher [00:34:08]:
So I agree with that. I feel like you don't have to say it all in an intake either because many times you're focusing on one little part of your story in a session, not the entire story in a full session.
Katie Landrum [00:34:17]:
So I'm curious when you go into an intake now, like, let's say you have a therapist, do you still do that, or do do you hold that?
Amanda Durocher [00:34:25]:
I personally do do it. If you can't handle all of it, like, if I can see that on your face, then I immediately know we're not a good match.
Katie Landrum [00:34:33]:
Because I think that's a good strategy too if that's what's comfortable for you. I think that is a way to find out if the therapist is a match too, and it's like the opposite of what I just said. But if it's if you're comfortable telling your story, I think that's a completely different thing than I think first time people coming in aren't necessarily comfortable all the time sharing, but I love your strategy too.
Amanda Durocher [00:34:58]:
Yeah. No. I agree with that. If I had felt any insecurity about it and I was nervous about sharing it, I don't know if it's a good strategy to go in and say it all. Since I'm a girl who talks about being gang raped on the Internet, you gotta be able to meet me here because I meet myself here all the time. So that's why I go with that. But, yeah, I agree. I think it's really knowing who you are.
Amanda Durocher [00:35:21]:
And if you're uncomfortable disclosing something, you don't have to disclose it. Like, if you're just feeling uncomfortable, you don't have to feel forced to say anything that makes you uncomfortable. Where for me, I'm comfortable talking about all of my things. So that's why I like to lay it all out on the table.
Katie Landrum [00:35:37]:
Yeah. I think that's, like, a good test or you had called it a barometer. I think that's good.
Amanda Durocher [00:35:43]:
Before we wrap up this episode, the last thing I wanted to ask you was what would be your advice for somebody first time going to therapy? What would be your biggest piece of advice as they venture on this journey of therapy?
Katie Landrum [00:35:55]:
Yeah. I think my biggest piece of advice would be if it doesn't feel right that they can move on. There are a lot of therapists out there. And if the first one isn't a good fit, it doesn't mean therapy isn't for you. It just means that this therapist may not be for you.
Amanda Durocher [00:36:14]:
Yeah. I think that's my advice too is trust yourself. Pay attention to the beginning of the process. I think that's why those questions you gave us are so helpful is because I think as much of the work you can do upfront can be really helpful. But as you found with that man who you had the experience with recently or within the last year, asking all the questions doesn't always solve the problem. You can still maybe find somebody who's not a great match. And I think it's important to just trust yourself and to know that if somebody's not a good match, it means nothing about you. I can't tell you the amount of times in my life that I thought if I'm not a good match with somebody, if somebody doesn't like me, that it was about me and it meant something was wrong with me, and then I judge myself and fall into this hole of shame means nothing about you.
Amanda Durocher [00:36:58]:
We're all different humans. We all don't get along. I had one woman. She worked in a therapy office. She wasn't a therapist, but she used to say finding a therapist is like finding a good pair of shoes. And everybody has different shoes and different feet. And you're just not gonna find the right one always on the first chance, and sometimes you will. So it's just trusting yourself is really, I think, important throughout the process.
Katie Landrum [00:37:19]:
Yeah. I love that. And I think bringing up that therapist that I had within the past year, trusting yourself and knowing when to walk away too. So even if you get through the initial and you think it's a good match, like if they show you that they're not then being comfortable enough to walk away and find someone else.
Amanda Durocher [00:37:38]:
Yeah. And I just wanna say to anybody who does walk away from their therapist, I'm gonna give you a high five today because it's super hard. And maybe you're the type of person who's used to people pleasing and you're used to just going along. Because a lot of my listeners are because I'm also a recovering people pleaser, but you're used to staying in a relationship too long. And maybe saying no to that therapist or bye to that therapist is one of the first times you set a boundary for yourself. And I just wanna give you a high five if you found yourself in that situation because every therapist that I have left has been so hard. Like, it isn't comfortable. That's what I like to talk about on this podcast is that these things we talk about, like, it's it's not comfortable.
Amanda Durocher [00:38:14]:
It gets more and more comfortable for me to say goodbye to therapists who don't serve me, but it's never a comfortable thing because there's another human on the other side who I still worry about their feelings even if I have to put my feelings first. It doesn't mean I don't think about that. I just don't allow it to run my decisions, if that makes sense.
Katie Landrum [00:38:32]:
Yeah. That makes sense. I think that's a good way to put it. And I'm also a recovering people pleaser, so I relate to that.
Amanda Durocher [00:38:39]:
Shout out lots of women out here recovering people pleasers.
Katie Landrum [00:38:43]:
At least we're recovering now. Yeah.
Amanda Durocher [00:38:47]:
I've been using that word a lot, like recovery, when it comes to healing. You know, I we are healing, and we're also recovering. We're in recovery. Right? We give ourselves so much leeway when we go through, like, health issues, physical health issues, surgeries. It's important to remember if you've experienced trauma or something traumatic or really hard breakup or heartbreak, you're also re you're recovering. You're in recovery. You need that time to, like, heal and repair. But recently, I've just been leaning into that word recovery because I think it's a little different than healing.
Amanda Durocher [00:39:18]:
It's a it's a nice reminder of, like, oh, yeah, the gentleness that comes with having to recover from something.
Katie Landrum [00:39:24]:
Yeah. I like that.
Amanda Durocher [00:39:24]:
That might've been a little bit of a tangent just because that's been on my mind. But anyway, do you have anything else you wanna say before we wrap up or any other last words of wisdom?
Katie Landrum [00:39:33]:
I don't think so. I think we covered everything really good.
Amanda Durocher [00:39:37]:
Yeah. Me too. Thank you so much for joining me on newbie advice and for sharing your wisdom with us. It was so helpful, and I hope that for people listening that they found it helpful. And if you've had a bad therapist, you are not alone. And if you have a good therapist, yay, you're also not alone. But I'm just really grateful that we were able to have this conversation because I think therapy is something that I found so helpful along my own healing journey, but it can get a bad rap and things like that, or people don't quite understand the entire process. So I think that this was really helpful.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:09]:
So thank you.
Katie Landrum [00:40:09]:
Yeah. Thank you for having me. This was fun.
Amanda Durocher [00:40:17]:
Thank you again for joining us for today's episode of NewView Advice, and thank you again to Katie for sharing her knowledge and wisdom with us about therapy and how to find a good therapist and giving great questions and suggestions on how to find a good fit for you and how to be prepared for that first therapy session. Because I know along my journey, I found therapy to be such a helpful tool when it's the right therapist. So I think it's so important to be intentional with your journey of therapy. If you have any follow-up questions, I invite you to write into the podcast. You can email me at contact at newviewadvice.com, or you can fill up the ask a question form in the show notes. I would love to do another episode with Katie if anybody has any follow-up questions and wants us to dive a little bit more into the therapy journey. Thanks again for joining us for today's episode of newbie advice, and I hope we were able to offer you a new view on whatever you may be going through. Sending you all my love.
Amanda Durocher [00:41:02]:
See you next time.